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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 11:26 AM
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Hi Everyone
I ususally don't put my 2 cents worth in on these type of discussions, but I have to think that most all of you know what your talking about and the knowledge is abound in this forum. I have a great suggestion that I think would help this situation, now don't think bad about it, but maybe you guys should get together on my car and work out all the problems, fix the body work and prime and paint it for a comparison. I will tell you one thing (my opinion only) and that is I believe most if not all of you are way above me on the knowledge you guys have and I have learned from each and everyone of you about one thing or another and have tried numerous suggestions from most of you and I have a good start on my rods body and if its not to my liking its hit the board for more info and start over again untill I get it right.
30dee
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
It may be the problem if you wish to use PPG's crappy DPLF. I was a certified PPG tech the last 6 years I worked in the collision shop. I did almost no body work, strictly paint. NOT ONE PPG jobber, rep, etc. had a good thing to say about the DPLF. In fact, they all told me I should leave it alone if I didn't want to pay later.
Randy, what products would be better suited?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 12:52 PM
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Better read than the paper today.

Since when did "hotrodders" paint ANYTHING?
I thought their intention was to just "build" it and then ROD the SH.. OUT OF IT.

Customizers on the other hand DO paint their creations and VERY well too.

Just some levity guy's.

Thought this was about ADHESION,
NOT,
Which WAY is BEST.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30desoto
...maybe you guys should get together on my car and work out all the problems, fix the body work and prime and paint it for a comparison...
LOL! Nice try!

Actually, I've learned something here, mostly from Centerline's comment. My opinion was that epoxy under filler was mostly prima donna overkill, but that has changed. I realize now that a lot of guys are going to struggle a bit with the straightening process, and that hitting the panel right away with some corrosion resistant epoxy can be a very good thing if the work can't be completed within a couple of days. That seems to ring true whether metalfinishing or filler will be attempted.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 02:42 PM
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crash tech that is my feeling exactly. Since this forum is designed to help out hobbyist I think that the recommendation to apply epoxy immediately after stripping paint is a good way for a person new to the bodywork process to not become so overwhelmed with the project. I have worked on cars that my buddies decided to tackle themselves and once they stripped the paint and found out how much work is involved stopped the work and left the car in the garage in bare metal for months. Then they come and ask me for help when they realize how much previous work was lying under all those layers of old paint. I am still confused as to what this test was supposed to be testing. Who plans on whacking a car against a work bench once it is finished anyway. Anyone new to painting should just read the tech sheets and follow them to the letter. They will tell you what to apply how to apply it what to sand it with, everything. As for water attacking filler from the backside of a panel you shouldn't be using filler over holes anyway if you actually care about the project. I personally like using filler over bare metal. It seems to feather out on the edge better than it does over epoxy.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 03:36 PM
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I Can End This Debate Once And For All!

I can remember watching American Hotrod and seeing the painters there spraying epoxy first before the filler.
So there!
If Boyd has it done on his cars, it's got to be best!
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrot
I can remember watching American Hotrod and seeing the painters there spraying epoxy first before the filler.
So there!
If Boyd has it done on his cars, it's got to be best!
Boyd who?

Boyd is an idiot but he does, or used to have one of the best body and paint guys in the industry working for him. Of course now that same guy works for Chip Foose. Can't blame him for jumping ship either.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 08:58 PM
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Interesting thread .... I guess I am one of the only ones around here doing collision work and using epoxy.... course I use it to hide and seal

Reckon filler aint the best way to go... yep we all agree there, but Ima gona have ta learn that there metal finishin mo betta than I doos it now

It makes this redneck and for someone like me it is super fast to apply filler, work it and move on to the next panel....

As for the adhesion...Brain has really stated the truth there as far as ownership... and then you have those who apply glaze over scuffed paint everyday without failures too... so you say tomatoe I say EPOXY

Ok so my post aint much, but with this dial up this weekend i am on, I had to say something
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centerline
Boyd who?

Boyd is an idiot but he does, or used to have one of the best body and paint guys in the industry working for him. Of course now that same guy works for Chip Foose. Can't blame him for jumping ship either.

I got Charlies autograph at NACE. You just couldn't help but smile in that guys company. His ear to ear smile was contagious. Seemed like a awful nice guy.

Brian
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
I got Charlies autograph at NACE. You just couldn't help but smile in that guys company. His ear to ear smile was contagious. Seemed like a awful nice guy.

Brian
Did you clue him in about HR.com????
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2005, 05:17 AM
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Randy... I wasn't surprised to see you finally chime in, and welcomed your response. I really respect your ability and skills, and would love to have 1/4 of the knowledge and ability that you have as far as metal working goes. If I had my way, I would never use body filler again. The fact is that working in a collision shop, it is pretty much impossible to make a living and not use it.

This board is a Hotrodding Board, but the people here do all kinds of work on their vehicles, and come here for help. Some people here are simply trying to get their daily drivers looking better. They may have bought them with damage, or hit something themselves. Although your style of metal working could be used to repair the damage better. The fact is that most don't have your ability, and many times, the time to repair it in that manor. Using body filler is an acceptable repair for most people, as long as it is used properly.

If I was doing an actual "Restoration" I would do everything that I possibly could to avoid using body filler to repair damage. Then again, I have fenders from a Model T that have hammer marks all over them. I am relatively sure that, when they had paint on them, the marks were barely, if at all noticeable. If I were actually going to use these fenders, I would have to remove the marks as much as I could. I would not fill them with body filler, but I would be able to take my time with them without loosing money or being without a vehicle to drive.

There are different standards for repair of a vehicle. Some should have no filler in them. Others, realistically, it doesn't matter, if the repair is done properly.

Aaron
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2005, 11:50 AM
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I've worked in shops in some shops that put down epoxy first, but most have been over baremetal. The vast majority of collision shops to make money are going to pull out the metal somewhat close and put filler over baremetal. Time is money. I've done it at home both ways as well, depends on the car and situation. Either way IMO is acceptable if the steps are done properly, but for a hobbiest who has plenty of time, and lot of work to do, I would spray the epoxy first. I didn't check out that test, but something was wrong there. I've seen plastic filler put over sanded paint and not fail, at least out the door. You are not suppose to apply filler over paint unless it is one designed to be used that way. Of course non of this was smacked against a table. It wouldn't be so widely recommended if putting filler over epoxy was a problem. It had to be thoroughly tested before they would recommend the practice and put rep on the line.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2005, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloverby
As for water attacking filler from the backside of a panel you shouldn't be using filler over holes anyway if you actually care about the project. I personally like using filler over bare metal. It seems to feather out on the edge better than it does over epoxy.
Bloverby,, I am not not saying that we are filling rust holes with filler, but if you have ever worked with 60 to 70 year old sheet metal, you should know that there is a possibility of pinholes in the metal even if it looks sound, weld lines, etc,, there are numerous places that water could get through the metal, I use epoxy for the added protection from rust, because it is water resistant, regardless of how the water gets there, Bill

Last edited by Centerline; 11-27-2005 at 02:26 PM.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2005, 03:49 PM
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I have been paying attention to what is really better and what I have found out is either way works if you follow directions.

The tests that were done only show one case of many that I can think of in my head. The real question is if you did say 10 cars each way under controlled conditions and then monitored how the paint stuck to the car for the next 10 years than we might get an idea of what really is better. The tests as done only show how well stuff holds together under conditions that are not seen on the car unless there is an accident. What was done is still very interesting. One fact that came out of the tests if I remember correctly has to do with sandpaper grit.

Lots of guys use 24 grit on steel before the bondo. The truth is something like 80 grit gives a better surface for the bondo to adhere to since there is more scratch per area.

In the end, if you are following directions either way will do just fine. I believe that the home hobbiest is better off doing an epoxy prime to protect the metal. Letting the epoxy cure good and then scuffing with the 80 before the bondo. This way he is dealing with sealed metal and if it take him a few weeks or months (or years) the metal is still protected.

If you will be moving on to sealing quickly than bondo direct to metal makes sense.

Most of the cars that we work on see limited use anyway so they should last for a very long time.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2005, 05:12 PM
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Bill In a situation where that pinholed metal is what you are working with I think the epoxy first makes good sense. In theory it makes good sense on any restoration or repair where corrosion protection is important. As far as pinholes from welding, the person doing the welding has a lot of control over that. I think the epoxy mainly makes people feel good about what they are doing. I own a 1979 f-150 4x4 that I painted around '99. It has more rust repair panels butt welded in place than you could count of both hands. That truck has spent a lot of time on paths etc. never spent more than a week inside since it was painted, never been waxed. Filler directly over metal, no epoxy on it at all. Not one failure over a repaired area to this day. So should I have used epoxy? Maybe, but at this rate it appears to me that the clear will fail before the moisture attacks one of the seams. I would be willing to bet that the factory seams in the door jambs or the leading edge of the hood where the panel is double walled will fail before any of the patch panels. In all my restoration experience it is always the stuff that you really cant control that comes back to bite you like where the factory overlapped three different pieces of metal on a fire wall, etc.. You remove the seam sealer and see surface rust between the overlapping panels. Do you replace the fire wall to eliminate the rust or do you grind it, prime it and reapply seam sealer? If you didn't replace it, that area will be a weak link in the paint job. What the epoxy does for you is it makes you feel that at least you tried to control a non ideal substrate as best as you could without replacing it. There is nothing wrong with that. Does the epoxy mean that rust will never show up again? Only time will tell.

This bedside has 5 different patch panels welded in. Filler over bare metal. 6 year old paint.

Last edited by bloverby; 11-27-2005 at 07:44 PM.
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