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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2005, 06:13 PM
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May I ask if you milled the epoxy to see how much was on the panels? May I also ask why you choose 402? It is well known in my area that 402 is pretty much worthless, that is why I ask. Most believe that the LF period is worthless.
Did you happen to do a panel that you didn't smack or bend? You know, a finished product that is left out in the weather like a normal vehicle would see? I mean if I wrecked my car I would expect failure as you tested for. The only way metal would bend or get smacked is in a wreck. Although I can see rockchips and the like happening.
I like that you took the time to do this test. The unneeded induction and the use of a lamp kinda turned me off but hey,you took the time. I did a similar test years ago with the DP(not LF)with 401 over metal followed by filler. I did the same over a sandblasted spot that I did not fill the pits just epoxied it. All lasted a period of 8 years with no loss of adhesion or appearance of corrosion, that is until I wrecked it and totaled it out. No I don't have pictures to back me up,just people who knew how I did it and seen it through its life span.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2005, 06:23 PM
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The epoxy under filler has been tested in real world conditions on vehicles that I've monitored since 1990, so for me I need no other testing to confirm that this procedure yields the best results. But when I see a bogus test posted it really burns my *** and makes me want to do a real test so people can really see the related durability advantages. Maybe I will.

MartinSR discussed the epoxy issue with Evercoat and they also supported this procedure as the best, who here doubts them?

For almost all collision shops using epoxy under fillers isn't an option with production being a the key reason. Time is money period. But for the person who has the time and the want for the best results then using epoxy under your polyester is your best route. Randy metalfinishes all his work but I'd put money down that he uses epoxy under his urethane surfacers which is the same basic principal as using epoxy under polyester. Increased filler adhesion with the added benefit of a moisture barrier under your polyester-it just makes sense. Bob
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2005, 09:54 PM
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BLOVERBY<<< That looks like a beautiful job to me, I use to put filler over bare metal. in fact ,for years i thought it was a definite no no to even think about putting filler on anything but bare metal, but that was back in the days of synthetic enamels and lacquers, I am not a professional body man by no means,, but over the years of building hotrods and customs, I have learned the hard way of what works and what doesn't work for me, so I guess I have taken the road that seems to work best for me,
You are right about the factory panels that have doubled up layers of metal,, with no rust inhibitor between layers,, that also was mostly done before the modern factory Bink and other rust proofing was a factory step in assembly .

I bet the rest of that ford looks good too, nice color,, Bill

Last edited by Bill Parten; 11-27-2005 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 11-27-2005, 11:49 PM
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Color is 1994 corvette dark cloisonne blue. My wife wants me to get rid of the truck since it has been serving duty as back yard art for the past few months.

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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2005, 12:05 AM
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Bob,

You're absolutely correct. If I'm doing the painting, it gets coated with 2 coats of epoxy prior to urethane surfacers. Much of what I do nowadays leaves the shop in bare metal and it's up to the body man to treat it however he wants, but I always stress to my clients that they should demand epoxy primer for the ground coat.

As a side note, For the last several years I used House of Kolor EP-2 epoxy primer. I thought it was the best stuff going. I never had a bit of trouble with it, but a couple years ago I ordered some and found they no longer made it, at least not available for sale in the good ol' U.S.A. The stuff I got that was supoposed to be the replacement, the chromate free stuff was crap! Then I tried SPI epoxy on a set of aluminum fenders I built. The epoxy was sprayed on the inside of the fender and on the steel inner structure and the assembly bonded with 3M panel bonding adhesive. The car has been on the road and race track for over a year now and is showing no signs of coming loose. The only thing holding the fender to the inner structure is the panel bonding adhesive and when you get right down to it, it's actually the epoxy doing the holding, since the adhesive is over the epoxy, NOT direct to metal. These fenders are on a '63 Impala Z-11 clone car that carries the front-end off the pavement for several feet when it launches, I'd say this is the true test!!!


Don't know why I didn't think to whack it on the bench before I shipped it out. SILLY ME!!!
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2005, 05:30 AM
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Yeah Randy I know exactly what you mean. Epoxy's adhesion if the prep work and application is done right is very very good. Fuzor also recomends applying epoxy primer before some of their adhesives which also supports it's value adhesionwise. People that have been applying fillers to bare metal without any problems might be fine with that proceedure and maybe some don't want to upgrade by applying epoxy first, but hell-things change. An example- remember years ago when Bondo brand body filler said on their directions to drill 1/8" holes all over the repair area---I bet there's still some people out there doing this but I hope not. All of us here have the ability to do our own testing IMO.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2005, 08:13 AM
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Guys, I never thought about this debate on those terms, How about urethane window setting?

ICAR, every auto and glass manufacturer that I know of say to urethane set the STRUCTUAL glass such as the windshield or back glass in a unibody car on epoxy primer over bare metal, PERIOD. Now, I forget what the tensile strength is of the urethane but it is something crazy. And the ONLY way you are to correctly use it is over epoxy that is applied to bare metal.

New Saturn decklids have epoxy primer on them with tape over the "pinch weld" that is NOT to be removed until after the lid is painted and when the glass is being set.

Brian
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2005, 08:38 AM
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Brian, very good points!
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2006, 09:47 PM
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Interesting how people can get so wound up over nothing. I use filler both ways and damn seems to work either way. Ricco
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