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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2005, 10:30 AM
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Autobodystore Response

I've read all of the comments on the HotRodders forum and feel that there is something missing. It should be noted that I've never seen any other tests of this type so anyone can comment from "opinion" but they should either do a test or quote from another test result that they have read. Opinions are sometimes well intended but have little or no value unless they have some experimental data to back them up. Serge may not have covered ALL the variables but he did a decent job of documenting the variables that he did cover.

As far as allowing enough time for the primer to cure properly someone stated that it should be left for a week. This may be a good "rule of thumb" but it can vary with temperature, application and the materials that were used. How many shops do you know that would wait a week before applying filler to a job? Not many I'll bet.

I sat on the board of a local body shop association when the epoxy primer recommendation was implemented by certain paint manufacturers and I found that no shop owner I questioned used primer under filler.

In our shop we use primer under filler when the filler is applied over a seam located low on the vehicle. We do this because the seam could allow moisture to reach the face of the metal and the primer could help shield the metal from the moisture. In 39 years of automobile restoration we've never experienced any failure of filler bonding directly to the metal as long as the metal was prepared properly and the filler was applied properly.

http://www.autobodystore.com/filler_&_epoxy.htm

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Old 11-25-2005, 11:15 AM
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LOL

Looking at the picture the filler stuck to the epoxy.
The epoxy pulled off the metal.

Solvent trap from applying the filler to soon.
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Old 11-25-2005, 11:44 AM
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Remember

This is a man that owns a shop not a DIYer. He uses these materials on a daily basis. You can make up any scenario you like but I'd recommend that you conduct your own test if you're not satisfied with his. It's easy to find fault with someone else's findings as long as you don't do the experiment yourself.

Do you really think that the paint companies can sell this process to the shops if it tells them to wait a week? The people that use most of these materials are professionals that need to move jobs from the body shop to the paint shop then out the door. NOT from the body shop to the paint shop, back to the body shop, back to the paint shop, wait a week then paint and deliver the vehicle to the customer.
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Old 11-25-2005, 12:00 PM
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GEE! Chill out!
I was just pointing out a fact.

Either the epoxy is no good or solvents were trapped.
Do it your way no one really cares and "either way is right".

If you run a production shop, you would be "stupid" to wait on epoxy first.

The difference between this site and yours is there is so much knowledge on here no one will get away with a flawed test.
Been to your site once 6-12 months ago other than look at this link and I'm sure this test caused all kinds organisms.

Buy the way the proper test for this was listed on here in last year been done many times.

Don't take it personal. If you do "oh well"
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Old 11-25-2005, 12:17 PM
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Just the facts mam

Do you have a link to what you would call the "proper test"? I'd be interested in seeing how someone else handled the test and got different results.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2005, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
GEE! Chill out!
I was just pointing out a fact.
I must respectfully disagree. Since you were not there, and have not had access to the tested materials, what you are doing is offering an educated opinion, not a fact.
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Old 11-25-2005, 12:41 PM
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Len, you are right, I have not done a test I can't say what "would" happen. However, I live by the old scientist motto.. "When an experiment yields unexpected results, you have to question the experiment".

As I said, I sure seem to remember that a metal conditioner was used. Can you email Serge and ask him? If it was, than there was no "standard". Epoxy has a very sticky resin, it just "shouldn't" come off like that, the results where "unexpected". The filler "should" fail or the adhesion from the filler to epoxy if anything. But the adhesion from epoxy to metal "should" be the best of the two.

The results are unexpected so I would have to do the test again if I were Serge and apply two coats as PPG says, plus not force dry it. That could have cooked the top surface "kicking" it and traping solvents.

I totally agree that if it can't be done in a few hours than it sure as heck shouldn't be pushed by PPG because it can't be done in your typical shop.

I think, if you wait longer, apply two coats, etc. What you will be challenging is the PPG DIRECTIONS not so much whether epoxy over bare metal is better. Because I think it will prove to be better with epoxy in the end.

Ok, that is all I can flap my jowls without going out and doing the test. I will have to do that. Of course, my test will have things that are challenged by others as well. HOWEVER, you can bet your bottom I will challenge it as well.

Brian
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Old 11-25-2005, 12:49 PM
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For the sake of making the test a little bit better.......well, there are a lot of variables that are claimed as a constant could be changed in this test.

1. First off, is the damaging of the product, just smacking it on the table for each one isnt very controlled, the pressure you used each time hitting it could be way different (human nature).

2. The contact area changes each time you hit it (corner of the wood table getting flatter and flatter each time spreading out the area of the blow, causing the filler and epoxy to be less and less disturbed as the test progresses)

3. The prying it back with the screwdriver doesnt really do much but exaggerate the test.

4. In order for you to make sure the epoxy is good, all of it would need to be from the same batch first off, which is what I assume you did.

5.Then, the curing of the epoxy, if I read your test right, 20 minutes is definatly not long enough.

According to PPG's tech sheets, that epoxy needs at least 1 hour to dry before applying body filler, thats with one coat. If you do do 2 coats, you need to let it sit overnight to apply filler. Even if you only did one coat, I would still wait the overnight just to be sure.


*my personal opinion of the situation*

I wouldnt worry about it too much, it's all up to you whether you want to lay down the epoxy or not. Sometimes if you may not have the time. But even after you do, and you get that first layer down to shape, theres going to be bare areas your next layer of filler is going to go over because you sanded on them in the prior stage. I really dont see it much more then personal opinion, it will all hold up as long as your area is prepped right and proper guidelines are followed.
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Old 11-25-2005, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtech
I must respectfully disagree. Since you were not there, and have not had access to the tested materials, what you are doing is offering an educated opinion, not a fact.
All you want!
But the fact is in the picture he posted.
The epoxy is coming off the metal.
Your choice:
PPG had a bad epoxy.
He metal prepped it wrong.
Solvents are trapped.

You chose. I don't really care!
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Old 11-25-2005, 01:28 PM
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Hey Brian You're a Pro.....

Does your shop spray epoxy primer on the metal prior to the application of filler?
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Old 11-25-2005, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Your choice:
PPG had a bad epoxy.
He metal prepped it wrong.
Solvents are trapped.

You chose. I don't really care!
BarryK, you are a highly respected member of this board, so I suppose it is not in my best interests to contradict you, but I believe your list of possible reasons for the test results may not be complete. Until someone else decides to perform another test in a more controlled environment, any conclusions we may draw are just so much hot air!

I must be the only one here who gets tired of your cocksure insistence that once BarryK makes his pronouncement from on high, all further debate is of no significance!
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Old 11-25-2005, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len S.
Does your shop spray epoxy primer on the metal prior to the application of filler?
No Len, we don't. In fact, I have never seen a shop who did other than on full on restorations, and only a very few of them. I have been in hundreds of body shops as you know. Bare metal is definitely a fine way to do it. I have said many times, "Polyester filler used even remotely correct will out last you and I". Like I said on the other thread, I am totally impartial in this "support" of epoxy prior to filler. I personally have NEVER done it, NEVER. I have always applied it over bare metal. I have however looked at the reasons for the support of it and it makes sense. I have also been "Toyota trained" and was told THEY want epoxy primer under filler.

I am just looking at all the REAL facts and will always then defend them, even if I am proven wrong. I just didn't see it in this test, it only raises more questions.

Brian
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Old 11-25-2005, 05:01 PM
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Gentlemen, so far we have done a pretty good job of keeping this particular conversation civil, hopefully it will stay that way. I understand that some of the respected professionals that spend a lot of time on this board don't agree with the test reported on Len's site. I also understand Len's defense of this test.

For a production shop I would have to agree with Len when it comes to using filler directly over metal. However, I have to remind you guys that most of us are do-it-yourself'ers and that makes a big difference on how you pros have to think when it comes to advising the masses who ask most of the questions around here.

When we do-it-yourself guys are doing our bodywork it generally doesn't get done in a few days. In many cases the filler may sit for a week or more before being covered by anything that would seal it from the elements. The major reason I can see for using epoxy under the filler is to prevent moisture from permeating the filler and getting to the metal and then being sealed in by whatever finish coating system is used.

I don't claim to be a pro but I have seen cases where filler was left uncovered for months in a relatively humid environment before being top coated and from personal experience that's not all that uncommon when it comes to the do-it-yourself crowd. In such cases you never know how much (if any) damage moisture may have done. Also in many cases we are dealing with very old metal that may or may not have been stripped correctly in the first place, yet another situation that you won't find in a production shop.

Whether or not you agree that epoxy under filler makes sense I believe a pretty good case could be made for using it when someone is doing their own work.
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Old 11-25-2005, 05:45 PM
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You make a very good point, Centerline. I always recommend that DIY'ers do one panel at a time, and the use of epoxy under filler certainly furthers the goal of maximum insurance against corrosion.
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Old 11-25-2005, 08:14 PM
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I have read all the post on this subject in this thread and the other one.With that said,I haven't done the test myself,so any opinion would be just that,an OPINION.How ever,I own a shop,and I almost always apply filler over epoxy.Not because I read this post or that post,but because the shop owners produce the kind of work that I would want on one of my cars ALL say that it is the best way to go about it!Don't get me wrong,this site is awesome,but it is easy to hide behind a P.C. and talk the talk,but walking the walk is a whole north thing.The cars I have seen/done myself that have been done with epoxy first,even many years after their completion have stood the test of time and look good to this day.As usual,this is just my opinion,and Im sure there will be many posts to prove how wrong I am....lol
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