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Old 11-12-2005, 12:59 AM
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AWD question

Guys, do you know any way to install on some old iron a All-wheel drive setup? I meant, not 4WD with transfer cases etc, I mean AWD with center diff or something, like on sportcars...

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Old 11-12-2005, 06:45 AM
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Suburu has been around for a whail, late 70's at least and they are all on AWD platforms, a model that comes to mind is the Brat. Might find some IHC Scouts might have AWD's, not shure but I think they might have
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Old 11-12-2005, 09:04 AM
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as far as I know...even AWD has transfer cases. I know my AWD Astro van had a transfer case,,,,,& it was not center differential
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Old 11-13-2005, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt167
Suburu has been around for a whail, late 70's at least and they are all on AWD platforms, a model that comes to mind is the Brat. Might find some IHC Scouts might have AWD's, not shure but I think they might have

M-m-m, well, I mean absolutely new custom AWD drivetrain, it's possible?
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Old 11-13-2005, 06:47 PM
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I've been thinking about this for some time now. With a "normal" budget the only thing I have come up with would be to use the engine/trans and AWD system from sometihng like the chev. silverado SS and mod it into an aftermarket frame. The problems I see are mainly related to cost - the donor SS in good working condition, aftermarket frame to fit body of choice plus a wide array of fabrication tools (cutting tools, benders,forming tools, tig welder and the skill to use each at the level of a professional) If I remember right the vortech engine in the SS was de-tuned due to concerns over the torque breaking the transfer case.

Although it would be really cool from an engineering and show perspective the cost to retrofit a serious street machine (10-11 sec ride) with AWD is not really feasible with a 30-40k budget in my opinion - but I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this come from someone like Trepanier, Foose or (mayyyybe) Boyd - with a 125k plus price tag...
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Old 11-13-2005, 06:54 PM
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Just after I posted I went to Troy's website.. voila.. they are in the process of building a '49 all wheel drive delivery.. here are the photos...

http://www.radrides.com/49.html
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Old 11-13-2005, 09:29 PM
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Remember the Quadra Deuce? It was and AWD off of a GMC Syclone modified driveline. Something like that would work (if you could find one). I would imagine you could build one with a normal transfer case in 4wd all the time and use something similar to a corvetter IRS in the front, or maybe some parts off of the El Dorado, Toronado, or Riviera could be used in the front.
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:32 AM
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Ok,and how about setup with center and rear differentials and without transfer case?
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:43 AM
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BTW, what setup they uses here?

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=pic.php&imagenum=1&carnum=395
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Old 11-14-2005, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1982 SS
Remember the Quadra Deuce? It was and AWD off of a GMC Syclone modified driveline. Something like that would work (if you could find one). I would imagine you could build one with a normal transfer case in 4wd all the time and use something similar to a corvetter IRS in the front, or maybe some parts off of the El Dorado, Toronado, or Riviera could be used in the front.
The "transfer case" in a Syclone/ Typhoon is the same one used in the Olds Bravada, AWD Astro/ Safari they are very easy to find.
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Old 11-14-2005, 09:31 AM
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1. You have to have a transfer case -- it "transfers" power from the rear wheels to the front. The transfer CAN be built into the transmission, such as in the Subaru. It's front wheel drive with an extra shaft running out the back of the trans. On a conventional engine and trans this is impossible.

2. If you're running in four wheel drive all the time, you MUST have a center differential of some sort. This lets the front wheels turn at a different speed than the rear wheels. If you don't have this and run it in four wheel drive all the time, the transfer case won't last long. Most use a viscous fluid "differential" for the center. It's basically two discs with a type of silicone between them that is thick enough it usually holds the two discs at the same speed, but will allow slipping in case one end is gripping more than the other. Part time four wheel drive setups don't have this, that's why the makers don't recommend driving in four wheel drive on dry pavement.

3. The best source for a relatively cheap transfer case is the AMC Eagle. It used a viscous diff in the case. One year, 1986, didn't have this but used a part time xfer case. Because of complaints AMC went back to an AWD case for the last year of production (1987 -- the 2306 88 models sold were actually built in late 1987). I'm not sure what trannys this would bolt to, it's an NP129 (full time 4WD) or NP229 (selectable, but still an AWD capable case). It's behind a Chrysler 998 in the Eagle. The only thing that trans will bolt to is an 1970 or later AMC/Jeep V-8, or 1972 or later AMC/Jeep in-line six. The 4.0L six used in the XJ Cherokee and Wrangler is actually pretty potent and would make a good rod engine, that's if you don't mind an in-line six (190 hp stock). You can use an AMC 360 V-8, but you'll have to have the 998 gone through to tolerate that kind of power. The transfer case would need upgrading for anything more than a stock 360/2V carb, especially with big meats on the axles. Even with the 2V model you'd need to take it easy, that AMC 360 doesn't put lots of hp out in stock form, but torque is killer at low speed! It was last used in the Jeep Grand Wagoneer, remember those?

There was a version made that bolts to the GM 2.5L four. That one used either an SBC pattern (81-83), or a 60 degree V-6 (late 83-84; 2.8L-3.4L). Only a few late 83s would have the V-6 pattern. It corresponds with Jeep using the 2.8L V-6 for 84-86 Cherokees until the 4.0L was ready. The five speed is a T-5, the four speed a T-4. The auto trans would be a 904, not a 998. The 904 or T-5 can be upgraded to handle a mild SBC. Transfer case might need upgrading as well.

Even with all the necessary upgrades, this setup might be cheaper and easier to find than something like a Syclone.
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Old 11-14-2005, 10:22 AM
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I've looked into this a little bit. I like the idea of the Astro/Syclone transfer case. I believe that some of the Bravadas used a different case that was electronically controlled and would be more difficult to implement.

Another consideration might be the Escalade AWD xfer case. I haven't been able to find out if it is just a mechanical viscous coupler like the Astro, or an electronically-controlled unit like the Bravada.

The biggest stumbling block, IMHO, is mounting the front differential and axle.

Astros (and 4wd S-10s) use torsion bar front suspensions to get around the problem of coil springs being right where the front axle needs to go. Ditto with FS GM trucks.

Worse, unless you plan on raising the engine above the axle and differential, it would be really hard to locate the front driveline around the engine.

You could do what Cadillac did on the early Eldorados - offset the engine slightly, mount the differential as close as possible to the block and run the driveshaft through the oilpan right under one of the main bearings.

I believe the Quadradeuce was able to get around this because the front axle is ahead of the engine. That also allowed them to rig up horizontal coil springs with actuator bars.

Anyhow, these aren't big considerations, depending on the vehicle, but they present real challenges, especially if you want to apply AWD to a car, rather than a truck.

BTW, if you go to www.drivetrain.com, you can lookup what transfer cases were used in various vehicles. You can also buy rebuilt units from them.

According to that site, the 1990-1995 Astros used the Borg Warner 1372 or 4472. 2000 went to an electronic shift model.

Same with the '90 - '96 Typhoon/Syclone. Ditto on the Bravada until 1998.
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Old 11-14-2005, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckucia
I've looked into this a little bit. I like the idea of the Astro/Syclone transfer case. I believe that some of the Bravadas used a different case that was electronically controlled and would be more difficult to implement.
The Bravada case was not electronicly controled at least through 94, I have one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckucia
Another consideration might be the Escalade AWD xfer case. I haven't been able to find out if it is just a mechanical viscous coupler like the Astro, or an electronically-controlled unit like the Bravada.
If any are electronic it would be the Escalades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckucia
Astros (and 4wd S-10s) use torsion bar front suspensions to get around the problem of coil springs being right where the front axle needs to go. Ditto with FS GM trucks.
That is true, there is a company that makes a coil over conversion that eliminates the torsion bars.
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Old 11-15-2005, 07:23 AM
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The AMC Eagle front end setup should work, and would be adaptable to Mustang II control arms. You'd have to weld a coil over mount on the UPPER control arm, which is how the Syclone conversion kit (to eliminate the torsion bars) work. Or use a Toyota, S-10, or even Chrsylser torsion bar front clip. The late Chrysler would be butt ugly on an open fender car, the Toyota or S-10 truck might be okay.

The Eagle uses a Dana 30 front end, common in other Jeep front axles. The difference is it has one axle tube on the right (from the driver's seat) and a flanged hub on the left right against the differential. The diff sits up close to the left side of the engine with the tube going under the oil pan (on the in-line six -- just in front of the balancer on the four -- or a V-8 conversion). From there a half shaft runs out to the hub, which is made in a steering knuckle similar to a 4x4 Jeep, only it has a ball joint on top and bottom. The ball joint is a standard type with the same angle as late model Ford and Chrysler products (most MII aftermarket suspensions use a screw in Chrysler ball joints). This axle would work well mounted in something like a T or A frame with the engine behind the axle and radiator in front of it (hiding it).

Wikipedia says the first Ford straight six was a 90hp 226 in 1948, same power as the flat head V-8 that year (six was a flathead too). So I guess none of their open fender cars would have had a straight six, just a four or V-8. May have to extend the frame in front a couple inches so everything fits/looks right.
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ownerT
The Bravada case was not electronicly controled at least through 94, I have one.
Looks like Bravadas started w/electronic control in 1998.

I was thinking about this last night, and perhaps electronic control would be a benefit - depending on how it works.

My FS truck as electronic 4wd with an automatic option. I don't believe the "electonics" are anything other than a solenoid-activated shift mechanism.

If the electronic AWD systems are similar, then it might be worth incorporating that if it would let you disable the AWD when you don't need it. You'd still be hauling around the extra weight, but you wouldn't have all the drivetrain losses.

I honestly don't know how the electronic AWD xfer cases work though. I assume they have the same viscous coupler as the fulltime AWD cases. Maybe they have a clutch pack to disengage the front drive axle - then the coupler would just spin - presumably thinking that the front and rear driveshafts were rotating equally and not engaging. I suppose its also possible that they use some sort of planetary arrangement and lock the front and rear driveshafts together internally, while disconnecting the front output to "fool" the viscous clutch into thinking that everything is rotating equally.

The xfer case in the Escalade ought to be able to handle some serious torque levels without grenading.
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