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Old 01-21-2007, 02:13 AM
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Badly misaligned timing on belt install

This isn't the typical kind of vehicle I see on here, but I'm hoping someone can help. 95 Dodge Caravan with a DOHC 3.0 in it made by Mitsubishi. It's FWD.

The timing marks on the crank and cam gears are all misaligned. Apparently it wasn't put to TDC before removal or anything, and all the gears were turned in different directions while it was disassembled.

We have no idea how to set the timing right, or how to verify that #1 piston is at TDC on the compression stroke. The rotor does NOT point to #1 terminal while the crank is lined up with timing mark with the belt installed in order for me to turn it all in sync. It's 90 degrees off in the clockwise direction.

Looking like a big job if we have to pull a valve cover or anything. Intake and everything will have to come off. I need a way to verify timing for both cam gears and the crank, and how to get #1 at TDC on compression stroke with it pointing at #1 under the cap.

Can we just slap the cam gears at the timing marks and then just worry about getting the crank and rotor both at #1? My knowledge is limited, but this doesn't seem safe as the intake/exhaust cycles for the valves could be mismatched from head to head. And also how do we know if the #1 piston is on the compression or exhaust stroke when its on the timing mark?

This van looks like a pain to work on, I'm trying to help a buddy out with his only transportation and am in over my head, but he knows no one else and is broke. Luckily he realized he messed up before he got it all together because I'm pretty sure its a valve interference motor. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you.

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Old 01-21-2007, 07:58 AM
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Before you go any further;

YOU NEED TO SOURCE THE CORRECT SERVICE REPAIR MANUAL.

Anything else is a waste of time and effort...
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Old 01-21-2007, 10:57 AM
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I'd love to, but it's about 80 bucks for the service manual. He can't afford it right now, and neither can I while I'm in the middle of a move.

I hope someone can "save the day", lol.
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Old 01-21-2007, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ
Before you go any further;

YOU NEED TO SOURCE THE CORRECT SERVICE REPAIR MANUAL.

Anything else is a waste of time and effort...
I agree fully. The $80 he qouted could easily be overcome by any damaged parts that might develop by an incorrect procedure.
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Old 01-21-2007, 12:05 PM
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We just can't do it right now, regardless if its justified or not. The resources just aren't there. Really hard times right now or he wouldn't even be trying to work on this transverse mounted motor with limited tools. I lost my house, and am in the middle of moving my family into an apartment. Hell, this is a borrowed laptop and internet even, lol.

We're just short a little knowledge... This thing needs to get put back together. I've searched and searched and can find nothing. I figured someone here would know a method of figuring it out and getting it all aligned.
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Old 01-21-2007, 12:32 PM
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no easy fix

so guys not an easy job if you don't have the tools or the experience this is not and easy job and i believe if you don't get it timed right you will cause a lot of damage
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Old 01-21-2007, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ
Before you go any further;

YOU NEED TO SOURCE THE CORRECT SERVICE REPAIR MANUAL.

Anything else is a waste of time and effort...

AMEN brother, AMEN

Since it is already together and is a problem..... I would speculate that if the crank were turned without the cams turning, the damage has already been done..... bent valves, etc.

If the cams just self-turned while the chain was off... maybe it is OK.

Granpa always said, "If you can't afford to do it right the first time, how much will it cost to do it over?"

Last edited by xntrik; 01-21-2007 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 01-21-2007, 12:43 PM
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OK...-HERE IS YOUR REPAIR INFORMATION-

Being DOHC, it is difficult to time both cams properly without a holding tool. You can do it, but it may take a number of tries. When you believe you have the belt on correctly, turn the engine by hand several revolutions and ascertain proper timing. This is an interference engine and you don't want to go there.

Also make sure tensioner (and bearing) are good.

Good Luck!
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Old 01-21-2007, 12:50 PM
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Doc here,

Here is some LIMITED information..

Timing

Looks like SPECIAL tools are required for this job anyway..If you don't have them, or resources for them , I'd take a pass..If you get it wrong, and this is an "Interference" motor, you can bend valves, crack pistons and bend stuff that shouldn't be bent..Resulting in a Destroyed engine.

For more..Go to your local County MAIN library REFERENCE ROOM, and ask for the factory manuals for your truck, Ours has them, and Sac is a much bigger library than ours 68 miles away..Bring Copy change though, they won't let reference material out of the building.

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Old 01-21-2007, 02:45 PM
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Thanks alot for your help you guys

I guess the only thing to do is follow the instructions Kulutz posted, and keep turning it by hand until I can get it all lined up with the rotor pointed at #1 and the cylinder in the top of the bore. Thats the best I can do for him... I'll explain it's 50/50 chance though, because that cylinder just might be on the exhaust stroke, correct?

I still don't know how I'm going to get the rotor at #1 with it all lined up. The rotor only moves with the outer cam sprocket, meaning I'll have to individually move it to get it lined up?

I'm still not sure of myself on this one. I would have told him to leave this one alone in the first place just because of it being Chrysler and transversely mounted.
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Old 01-21-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizturbed One
Thanks alot for your help you guys

I guess the only thing to do is follow the instructions Kulutz posted, and keep turning it by hand until I can get it all lined up with the rotor pointed at #1 and the cylinder in the top of the bore. Thats the best I can do for him... I'll explain it's 50/50 chance though, because that cylinder just might be on the exhaust stroke, correct?

I still don't know how I'm going to get the rotor at #1 with it all lined up. The rotor only moves with the outer cam sprocket, meaning I'll have to individually move it to get it lined up?

I'm still not sure of myself on this one. I would have told him to leave this one alone in the first place just because of it being Chrysler and transversely mounted.



Real simple here, OK.......

You can NOT turn the crankshaft without the cams turning AT THE SAME TIME or the pistons will bend the open valves.

Both cams and the crank MUST turn simultaneously and close to being "in-time" with each other or the valves will be bent.

You can take out the #1 spark plug, put your finger in the hole, and when it blows air out....... that is the compression stroke.

If the cams are very far out of time and the engine has been cranked with the starter..... it is too late to save the valves.
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Old 01-21-2007, 10:54 PM
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There is a mark on the crankshaft sprocket and on the block for tdc,and line it up and then turn your cams I would put both of them a half notch up from the mark including the crank,and when you apply tension it should put them b in place, you cant see the mark on the sprocket on the crank with the balancer in the way,and I do these all the time at work and have no special tools to do it with. just line them up it make take a few times to see how the slack in the belt is going to change the marks but when you see adjust a little before the actually marks on all 3 of them and see what happens,and yea you can bend the valves but if you haven't hit the starter I wouldn't worry about,and I have done some of these engine with broke timing belts,and never had a problem I'm not saying it cant happen though
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Old 01-21-2007, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizturbed One
Thanks alot for your help you guys

I guess the only thing to do is follow the instructions Kulutz posted, and keep turning it by hand until I can get it all lined up with the rotor pointed at #1 and the cylinder in the top of the bore. Thats the best I can do for him... I'll explain it's 50/50 chance though, because that cylinder just might be on the exhaust stroke, correct?

I still don't know how I'm going to get the rotor at #1 with it all lined up. The rotor only moves with the outer cam sprocket, meaning I'll have to individually move it to get it lined up?

I'm still not sure of myself on this one. I would have told him to leave this one alone in the first place just because of it being Chrysler and transversely mounted.
if you line your rotor up #1 it will be close but not right and it will lope at idle if it will crank if. pull the balacer and clean the sproket and you can see your mark.
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:13 AM
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Since when does a haynes repair manual cost more than like 12 bucks!? Pick one up at autozone, you dont need a dealer manual.

K
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:04 PM
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im sorry guys, i dont think i've been clear.

we have the haynes. i know how to do a timing belt properly without changing the timing. the problem here is that the crank and cam gears were already turned in both directions an unknown numbers of times when i came across the situation. the reason the van sits now is because when i went to help him i realized what had happened immediately, and told him if he put it back together and started it that motor was gone.

i need to know how to ascertain proper timing on this motor from "scratch" essentially. i have #1 plug pulled. thanks for the finger trick xntrik, can't believe i didn't think of that.

remember, Dual Overhead Cams, so i can get the cams on the mark, and i can get #1 piston at TDC on compression stroke. BUT... the rotor is pointing 90 degrees away from #1 when the cam mark is lined up, meaning those cam gears have a good chance of not being synchronized anymore if one has turned more revolutions than the other. and ONLY the outer cam runs the distributor. since we have no way of knowing how many times and in which direction they were turned i need to ascertain the timing for EVERYTHING is sychronized with each other.

when's the last time your haynes has gotten that down and dirty? never.

so do i keep turning these cam gears 180* then hooking the belt back up and lining it back up with the marks until it all lines up? even then, how do i know both banks of valves are firing opposite each other correctly?
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