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Old 06-12-2009, 08:02 AM
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Balancer loose on crank

I'm ressurecting a 1964 283 that was rebuilt in 93, then ran about 10k miles then pullled out and put in storage. In putting stuff back on the motor, I found that the balancer, (stock one that was originally on the motor) was loose, so I scrounged up 2 more. The are both loose as well, (the rusted one fits the best), but all of them are so loose that you can push them on by hand. This is one of those cranks with no threads in the snout. I intend on drilling and tapping the snout for a bolt, but wonder if there is any fix for this?
I don't like the idea of the balancer being able to slip on the crank, I know that it can hammer the key and keyway and then the balancer will not really do what it's supposed to.

I thought about knurling the inside of the balancer, then using some loctite retaining compound, (RC 680) but I'm not sure if it will be enough.

This is the total shadetree castoff parts scrapbin build, so buying a new hone to fit balancer ain't gonna happen.

Thanks for reading this.

Later, mikey

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Old 06-12-2009, 08:57 AM
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Balancer

Many car use slip on balancers question is how loose is it. Drill and tapping for a bolt is always good thing to do.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
I'm ressurecting a 1964 283 that was rebuilt in 93, then ran about 10k miles then pullled out and put in storage. In putting stuff back on the motor, I found that the balancer, (stock one that was originally on the motor) was loose, so I scrounged up 2 more. The are both loose as well, (the rusted one fits the best), but all of them are so loose that you can push them on by hand. This is one of those cranks with no threads in the snout. I intend on drilling and tapping the snout for a bolt, but wonder if there is any fix for this?
I don't like the idea of the balancer being able to slip on the crank, I know that it can hammer the key and keyway and then the balancer will not really do what it's supposed to.

I thought about knurling the inside of the balancer, then using some loctite retaining compound, (RC 680) but I'm not sure if it will be enough.

This is the total shadetree castoff parts scrapbin build, so buying a new hone to fit balancer ain't gonna happen.

Thanks for reading this.

Later, mikey
The balancer needs to be a slight press fit, any looseness allows a slippage between the crank and damper which reduces the transfer of vibrations needing to be damped from the snout of the shaft. This can cause a situation where the snout is whipping off center the results of which can range from the snout breaking off to the crank bending across the number one main which will carve out the bearing and loose oil pressure, this is usually seen as the number one and or number two rod hanging outside the block.

Certainly getting a bolt onto the crank to retain the damper is a good idea, the originals were retained simply with a press fit which worked loose with age allowing the damper to come off and certainly the looseness greatly reduced the effectively of the damping that could be accomplished. To some extent, the bolt will force the damper hard against the crank timing gear which will increase the intimate contact area with the crank and will provide a solid coupling for vibration transfer, for a mild street engine this can prove to be sufficient to get enough damping to prevent damage to the crank. For a race engine or a street driver with a heavy foot, probably not enough to be safe for any length of time.

Neither rust nor Loc-tite is a substitute for an adequate metal to metal press fit. The need for a metal to metal press fit, to be redundant, is to provide an intimate load path for the vibrations and distortions of the crankshaft into the damper where they are absorbed by differential motions between the hub and collar thru the rubber that bonds these two parts together.

Bogie
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:12 PM
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Thanks Oldbogie, this is not any kind of super trick high revving 283, (although it does have some DartII heads and a 260* cam, I'm putting it back together for a friend to stick in his beater car.)

I have the feeling that the loose balancer beat on the crank some while it was wobbling around, and that's what causing the loose fit on all 3 balancers, although the keyway fit on 2 of them is way better than the balancer that came with the motor.

I've heard of guys chewing on the cranksnout with a pipewrench to raise up some metal for a tighter fit, but that seems just a little too neandreathal for me. I was thinking of knurling the inside of the balancer on the lathe with a boring bar ground so that it would displace the metal instead of cutting a groove. It wount take much, maybe a couple of thousandths. Then bolt it on with a grade 8 bolt and thick hardened washer. Do you think I can get away with a drilling and tapping for 1/2-20 bolt or should I stick with the 7/16 bolt that normally comes in chevy cranks?

Later, mikey
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
Thanks Oldbogie, this is not any kind of super trick high revving 283, (although it does have some DartII heads and a 260* cam, I'm putting it back together for a friend to stick in his beater car.)

I have the feeling that the loose balancer beat on the crank some while it was wobbling around, and that's what causing the loose fit on all 3 balancers, although the keyway fit on 2 of them is way better than the balancer that came with the motor.

I've heard of guys chewing on the cranksnout with a pipewrench to raise up some metal for a tighter fit, but that seems just a little too neandreathal for me. I was thinking of knurling the inside of the balancer on the lathe with a boring bar ground so that it would displace the metal instead of cutting a groove. Then bolt it on with a grade 8 bolt and thick hardened washer. Do you think I can get away with a drilling and tapping for 1/2-20 bolt or should I stick with the 7/16 bolt that normally comes in chevy cranks?

Later, mikey
Knurling strikes me as viable, I see no problem with a 1/2 bolt assuming the existing hole is small enough to take a 1/2 thread. However, Moroso used to sell a complete 7/16s kit with a tap, bolt and super big thick washer, I think that's a simpler route and you get a washer big enough to take up the load correctly, not that you can't hunt something down in half inch, it just gets to be one more PIA you could avoid. Keeping the tap straight is the big problem, a lot easier when the crank is out of the engine.

Bogie
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
I have the feeling that the loose balancer beat on the crank some while it was wobbling around, and that's what causing the loose fit on all 3 balancers, although the keyway fit on 2 of them is way better than the balancer that came with the motor.
Is there any visible indication of the balancer having been loose on the crank- like any metal having been displaced? Or any sign of there having been an ill-advised use of sandpaper to "help" the balancer be installed?

Reason I ask, is that there may be some hope for some sort of a press fit by using a new damper, along w/the 7/16" crank bolt/thick washer.

Just a thought. There are OEM-type balancers available that aren't budget-busters.
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbogie
Knurling strikes me as viable, I see no problem with a 1/2 bolt assuming the existing hole is small enough to take a 1/2 thread. However, Moroso used to sell a complete 7/16s kit with a tap, bolt and super big thick washer, I think that's a simpler route and you get a washer big enough to take up the load correctly, not that you can't hunt something down in half inch, it just gets to be one more PIA you could avoid. Keeping the tap straight is the big problem, a lot easier when the crank is out of the engine.

Bogie
Right now there is no threaded hole in the crank, it just has the centering hole. Keeping the drill and tap straight is no prob, I make drill/tap guides all the time for doing weird stuff like this. (the last one I made was for drilling out a bunch of rusted and broken exhaust manifold bolts in a 428 CJ) The motor is out and on a stand. Drills and taps I already have lots of those.

I'm thinking that a 1/2" bolt would be better, that way I could put more torque on it to jam it tighter against the crank timing gear. I have a large od, hardened washer somewhere in my junkpile, I knew I was saving it for something.

Cobalt, right now I have an abundance of those small balancers, and more time than money. I know that the balancer that came with the motor exhibits lots of evidence of wobbling, it rotates about 3* and you can shake it with your hands on the crank. The other 2 I have are much tighter, and don't rotate but still slip on with hand pressure. The crank is smooth. No sandpaper marks, no pipewrench teethmarks.

Thanks for the tips,
mikey
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Old 06-12-2009, 01:51 PM
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I've never seen your shop but obviously if your business is building perf. cars then you probably have the equipment to do this..... My idea would be to hone out the interior of the balancer the needed thousands to be able to slip in a possible rod bearing shell or a sleeve of some sort for a press fit.

It may be a hunt for the proper piece, and you may have to make the sleeve but I think it would work. Drill the snout for the 7/16 bolt and you're good to go.
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:27 PM
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I would bore the Balancer,And make a sleeve.. My 283 didn't have the bolt either..
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS
I would bore the Balancer,And make a sleeve.. My 283 didn't have the bolt either..
x2, this is the way to do it. Make the sleeve a TIGHT shrink fit to the balancer, I'm guessing .004-.006" press, warm the balancer to 200 degrees or so (boiling works good) and freeze the sleeve overnight. Leave the sleeve well undersize (.050") and finish bore to a good press fit to the crank after it is in the balancer.
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:49 PM
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A bolt will keep it from coming off but not from being to loose. I have used a locktite product called bearing retainer. It holds real good and will make up a few thousandths. This combined with the bolt will probably do the trick.
The sleeve method will also work but will require a lot more work to accomplish.
The locktite #s are 660 and 603.
I have used both and they work real well, never on a damper though
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:00 PM
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Even sleeved, there needs to be a keyway cut.

I can't help but think that the 7/16-20 (NF) Grade 8 damper bolt and loctite will hold that sucker just fine, as long as the keyways are both tight.

BTW, the bolt will take up to 90 ft/lb torque. 150 ft/lb if you go to a 1/2-20 (NF) grade 8.
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:14 PM
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Been through this before, and unless you tack weld the bolt head to the washer and the washer to the damper pulley, even .001" of play will result in the harmonic vibrations turning the balancer into a ratchet and it will loosen the bolt. Locktite in any form is worthless, even the Stud and Bearing Mount form, it can't deal with the shake. If you can't sleeve it, knurling in some form + tack welding the bolt/washer might have a chance. We had to do the welding deal to save a 300hp 327 for a summer.

Edit: It spun the #1 rod in the fall and #1 main looked terrible, we figure the balancer fit was the culprit.
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:19 PM
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a number of newer motors use a slip fit balancer without any problems.
i think knurling the inside of the balancer and bolting it on will be fine.
some loctite on it wouldn't hurt either.
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:29 PM
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FWIW, my 455 Pontiac had a TCI damper that- if you worked at it- would come off w/o a puller, by hand. The bolt never loosened, and wasn't locktited.

But I suspect the OP's deal is much looser than what I described. Mine had zero wobble or slop- just a tight slip fit.
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