Bare Metal - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Body - Exterior
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2004, 11:36 PM
mitmaks's Avatar
Member
 

Last journal entry: Grille
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Washington
Age: 31
Posts: 1,599
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
you dont have to put primer under filler but if you got $$ you can put whatever you want under your filler, never had problems with just filler over metal then primer, sealer and topcoat.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2004, 04:18 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,578
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 61 Times in 39 Posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MARTINSR
[B]Barry, I believe everything you say, but it does fly in the face of what I was taught. A couple of things don't add up.
First off, why do all the major manufactures still have etch primer as the base for their life time warranties (at least the last time I looked)? They are putting HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars on those warranties. They do the same salt tests, why in the world would they do that?
************************************************** **It $$$! That why they all make lacquer primer, and whats the liability on their part? Remember PPG, Dupont and S&W make automotive paint around one person. The chevy dealership.
What do these dealers do other than spend a lot of money. Most of the jobs are a fender or door, and the car may be owned by the same person for 2-3 years. NO RISK. Plain add-on profit!
**********************************************

I used to have OEM requirements for repairs on their vehicles to maintain the OEM warranties. I don't remember all of them, but many had a requirement of etch primers. Getting your paint system OKed by the auto manufacture is no easy task as you may have found out.
************************************************
Who writes these requirements? The paint company's!, I wrote the oil requirements when I was with the oil company.
Getting your paint approved is a joke. $250,000-500,000 a year just for testing. NONE of the approved systems are the same as in the shop! It would never pass! First the base has to use an activator or you never will get through the test.
This is a big scam! How many systems does PPG have? dbc, dbu.ETC>> The reactive reducer base would never make the test, the get one line passed but you don't know that that!
All you know is PPG is approved.
************************************************** *88

They REALLY test and retest these products (or do they just
How are these products salt spray tested? Did they have protection over them? In other words where the primers top coated with a urethane SS or something like that? Where the etches top coated with a urethane primer and then urethane SS or similar?
************************************************** **
No each product is tested by itself, if you put epoxy over acid the hours will go from say 60 hours to 50-60% of the hours of the epoxy.
So say the epoxy is a 600 hour epoxy by itself than the etch under it would test at 300-450 hours.
This is under the creeping test.
***********************************************

Last edited by BarryK; 07-23-2004 at 04:41 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2004, 08:35 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,201
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,336
Thanked 1,167 Times in 1,029 Posts
I am with you on the warranties, that is real easy to believe. They are working on the odds, plain and simple.

The test of the etch under the epoxy says a lot. But how in the world could you say a salt spray test on bare anything is a subjective test? Bare etch primer? It isn't meant or recommended to be used that way. It is like testing paint applied to a block of ice, when it fails you can't say the paint is of poor quality.

Have you done tests with these products applied as recommended with paint over them to protect it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2004, 10:23 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,578
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 61 Times in 39 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by MARTINSR
I am with you on the warranties, that is real easy to believe. They are working on the odds, plain and simple.

The test of the etch under the epoxy says a lot. But how in the world could you say a salt spray test on bare anything is a subjective test? Bare etch primer? It isn't meant or recommended to be used that way. It is like testing paint applied to a block of ice, when it fails you can't say the paint is of poor quality.
************************************************** *** Really it says a lot, if you live in Michigan on salt roads and you get a chip, how big and fast will it spread?
Epoxy or acid etch has two jobs, adhesion and the SPREADING of rust. Thats why the salt spray tests.
************************************************** *

Have you done tests with these products applied as recommended with paint over them to protect it?
************************************************** *
Yes, i get totally stupid on these tests, its a riot and full if information that no one want published!
I will take different base coats and use other clears over them and see what holds up better. Just took a major company base and used their $300 a gallon clear and also used their base with Duponts 7800 glamor clear. On the stone chip test it was a 60% improvement mixing systems! Oh! you can;t do that! I forgot!
When I used a HS poly clear it improved 97%!
This same company that I used the base from is a euro company with high prices but quality not great, so I did a test with scuff a factory job and went to base and on other half of fender scuff base and applied epoxy before using there base and clear. Their base clear had a 84% fail rate on the chip test and with epoxy had a 17% fail rate!
To answer your question, the testing of acid etch with their system, not to mention any names as to company but yes, I did without the epoxy over it. I applied their 2K sealer before base and it hit somewhere between 120 and 150 hour mark, its been a couple of years and just can't remember the exact hour time.
What helped is I did use their best clear at the time and thats what I always do to give them benefit of doubt.

Last edited by BarryK; 07-23-2004 at 11:05 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2004, 10:25 AM
m1e9r5c6's Avatar
Nate
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Age: 36
Posts: 29
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks Martinsr

That was exactly what I have been looking for. A very good explanation . I finally have at least some of the knowledge I will need so I don't look like a dumba** when I talk to the paint supplier.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to prep areas that are hard to get to, like under the rolled box rails of my 56, but are still seen? It is near impossible to get this area down to bare metal, and it is starting to get surface rust.

Thanks again guys.
__________________
"Shoot me again... I ain't dead yet!"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2004, 03:16 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,201
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,336
Thanked 1,167 Times in 1,029 Posts
Barry, I really appreciate your passion for what you are doing. Let me as you a few more questions to fully understand what you have found.

How about any flash rust that is bound to exist on bare metal? If you have a little flash rust the acid in the etch is going to "convert" it. How did the epoxy hold up when a little rust is present?

For that matter, was the condition of the metal always the same (I sure assume that is a stupid question being THAT would be the most important thing when doing a comparison test).

I am fascinated on your findings. I know you don't want to toss around brand names and for that matter, it shouldn't make that big of a difference anyway as long as they are like technologies they should be "pretty close". But was that etch of S-W's that worked the best (as I remember you said that) the Vinyl wash? It has PVC in it which makes sense that it would be a special product.

Listen, I have no allegiance to S-W, I hardly did when I was an employee. The truth is the truth. I have a lot of respect for them as an employer. They treated me very well as they do all thier employees. I can't say enough good things about them in that respect. As a product, I know the weak points as well as the strong. Facts are what I am concerned with, not emotion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2004, 05:10 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,578
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 61 Times in 39 Posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MARTINSR
[B]Barry, I really appreciate your passion for what you are doing. Let me as you a few more questions to fully understand what you have found.

How about any flash rust that is bound to exist on bare metal? If you have a little flash rust the acid in the etch is going to "convert" it. How did the epoxy hold up when a little rust is present?
************************************************** ***With a 30% solution the bare metal will be yellow in about 15-20 minutes. I recall no difference between the epoxy and any of the acid etches. The epoxy is excellent against the rust.
I'm not sure I'm answering your question but if I understand when the crosshatch is done with the screw driver the acid would be gone? Really never paid any attention to this detail but will next time.
########################################

I am fascinated on your findings. I know you don't want to toss around brand names and for that matter, it shouldn't make that big of a difference anyway as long as they are like technologies they should be "pretty close". But was that etch of S-W's that worked the best (as I remember you said that) the Vinyl wash? It has PVC in it which makes sense that it would be a special product.
########################################
Yes, the Vinyl wash from day one has always been the best and I would have to rate Vari-prime a solid second.

"Technologies pretty close"
You don't know how close! There are no secrets in this business.
We all buy our Isocyanate's from one company Bayer-mobay Yes the aspirin maker they are the only manufacturer of iso's in the USA.
There are probably 4 resin manufacturers that sell most of the core resins to all the paint companies in the part of the market.
A lot of the companies buy their urethane reducers from one big supplier because thats all they do and its cheaper for them to mix it and send in tote or rail car than to make it your self.
The real difference is how much profit do you want to make/
Do you pay $1 a pound for an ISO or $14.? There are many options that you can stuff into a gallon and net cost has a lot to do with quality.
The majors premium lines all seem to be based on a 5 year life, now that does not mean it won't last 20 years depends on how car is treated. But they design everything for the Chevy dealer as thats where the dollars are for there business. Could they do better? sure but if you think the cost is bad now, holly cow.
I just in last week had a major call me about a primer I made 4 months ago, he could not figure out the resin in it and sales wanted it, I told him and his response was we would have to get $400+ a gallon if we copied it. I get $103. He said marketing is not going to like this answer.
To me I just want everything to be the best, so guess I never will be a major!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2004, 05:46 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,201
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,336
Thanked 1,167 Times in 1,029 Posts
Thank you very much Barry, I really appreciate your time explainging this stuff. Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-26-2004, 01:59 PM
Mollard's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ontario
Age: 29
Posts: 61
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Wow, I never knew I would get such a good responce. Thanks a lot for your help guys. Someone should sticky this subject so future noobs like myself can have a good read.

Thanks a lot guys.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2004, 07:43 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lakeland FL
Age: 65
Posts: 4,110
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
To Mollard

It's a whole different game to try to stop rust in Ontario Canada.

I suggest you re-submit your question asking for help from Canadian sources.

You do need to give more info on where you are doing the mod's and how much is a "little" filler.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2004, 07:18 AM
Shabby chic sheet metalshaper
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Moclips, Wa.
Posts: 233
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Back to the surface rust question...I have bare metal laying around the shop in various stages of shaping, and sometimes I do not get back to a piece for months. For surface rust, I brush on some metalprep (or other mild phosforic acid solution) let it sit for a few minutes then work it in with the brush...kind of scrubbing...it is amazing how well this will clean up the metal, rinse, dry and go.

John
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2004, 08:22 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lakeland FL
Age: 65
Posts: 4,110
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
John,

For storing/keeping bare steel "rust free"I've been reading lots of good comments about a product called "Picklex", more info on the "autobodystore.com" web site.

Yeah, the metal prep works great for converting/cleaning the steel.

But the cleaned steel is still exposed to the humidity and oxygen and electric (static) charge that causes rust.

You need a temporary (?) barrier coating on the steel to cut off the H2O/O2 contacting the bare surface
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2004, 08:35 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,201
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,336
Thanked 1,167 Times in 1,029 Posts
I have tried a little Picklex on a test panel in the garage, looks like it works as advertized.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2004, 02:33 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Edmonton
Age: 46
Posts: 67
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
wouldnt a conversion coating work for storing bare metal?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2004, 04:06 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lakeland FL
Age: 65
Posts: 4,110
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rumpity,

Define "conversion coating" a little more, are you asking about a "rust converter" or a "etching converter" or "? converter" for storing bright steel
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Body - Exterior posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.