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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 08:59 AM
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One other thing,
This is not about pollution. If you spray a 4.2 voc product (4.2lbs per gallon) and a dealer with an $80,000 spray booth sprays the same gallon. Does he pollute less?
The only difference is he has an exhaust filter to collect the hard or solid exhaust but filters do not collect the 4.2 LBS of voc's. (they evaporate)
Solid bro, solid

I think Barry and Brian have answered the questions... We can beat a horse with the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" idea's all day.. But Money talks and Bull**** walks... Bottom line


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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 11:03 AM
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the EPA and OSHA are the reason there is so much outsourcing to foreign market right now. I keep hearing how long it's been since there has been a new refinery or electric plant built in amerika, any wonder why with all the regulations that have to be complied with? don't get me wrong, I'm all for safety, but when is the world going to start caring about the rest of the worlds safety? who gives a rats butt if there spraying environmentally unfriendly paint in china or wherever OSHA and EPA aren't on the unsafely made cars and appliances that they are planning on selling back to us?




CVX (chevron) is at 67 and change right now.....
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jcclark
We all know what to call that, A monopoly!
(that's illegal in this country, LOL)
A monopoly is not illegal in the U.S. Using monopoly powers to prevent competition from starting up or using monopoly powers to gain control over another market segment, is illegal. Once a business attains monopoly power in a given market segment, the rules change for them. Otherwise, the monopoly would be able to continue leveraging their power to take over more and more markets. It would eventually be the end of competition and capitalism.

I think what you were responding to was more along the lines of collusion or a cartel, where several big players in a market get together to fix prices and come up with ways to keep would-be competitors out. That's also illegal (it has the same effect as a monopoly so long as the cartel holds together) but it happens quite a lot. See the MPAA with their regional encoding on DVDs and the diamond cartel.

If the largest paint manufacturers are price-fixing, I don't see how that relates to the EPA. The big paint shops and collision repair shops that are complaining about not having a level playing field may be crying crocodile tears. It would be nice to see some real numbers about dollars and emissions. That article is more like an executive summary; made to give an overview for people who don't have time to do nit-picking research.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 12:15 PM
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If the largest paint manufacturers are price-fixing, I don't see how that relates to the EPA.


Thats what they want!!! Were getting somewhere now!

The gov't loves people that can't feed themselves and people that always believe what they say or cannot think for themselves.

You really think they want you to know?

If you knew all the facts before any law was passed they would never get one passed.

This thread is really wored out.

Best thing to do if your for it or against it is write your congressmen hopefully you can write more than the proponents have money to bribe.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2005, 07:59 PM
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Saw this on ABS. Maybe worth a shot.
Rather than wringing your hands and complaining, let's start writing now. The person at the EPA who was named in the articles about paint sale and use restrictions was Kim Teal. The EPA website lists the following contact info for her:

DON'T write an inflamatory letter or email.

DO get your grammar and spelling correct.

DO spell out how the auto hobbist probably paints fewer than a half-dozen cars in a lifetime.

DO talk about impacts to farmers, aviation hobbists, the construction industry, etc.

DO be sensitive to the fact that we all need to help with the environment.

Constructive, clearly-worded letters will be read. Profanity-filled tirades with poor spelling will be deleted. Let's fill her inbox with emails!
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2005, 09:23 PM
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I emailed Paula Hirtz at the epa about this rule earlier this week. I explained that I was a home hobbyist in a rural area using hvlp guns and exhaust filters along with other sensible controls. This was the response I got.

"Good afternoon Barry. Sorry I took so long to respond, but I have been
out of the office on travel and just got back today. Kim Teal is the
project manager for the rule so I will copy her on this response. She
can add anything I miss. First of all thank you for offering up your
situation and opinions. So often small businesses want to remain
anonymous and therefore rules are developed without their input. You are
right, we are attempting to develop a rule that applies to everyone, and
reduces emissions, especially in urban settings, where auto refinishing
operations exist close to residential areas.

The short answer to your question is that it sounds like you are doing
what we will expect all others to do. The rule is taking shape and will
most likely require a booth, exhaust filters and the use of HVLP (or
equivalent) spray guns, along with some basic work practice standards to
minimize emissions (such as keeping containers of paint and solvent
closed, etc.). The autobody refinish shops we've talked to and their
associations are strongly advocating point of purchase
controls/restrictions for auto refinish products. It sounds like you are
thinking along the same lines in terms of issuing a certification card.
The card would be the evidence that a painter has received proper
training in paint application and is aware of the rule requirements. We
have no intention of using the card to limit the amount of paint that is

So, yes, as a home hobbyist you will be able to continue to purchase
paint and continue your trade."

Not sure I like the label of small business owner. I only paint as a hobby not for profit.

Anyway maybe this will help clear up what they are trying to accomplish. It probably won't be as dismal as everyone thinks it will be. I all ready have too much money invested in tools and equipment related to painting to turn back now. If the new rule means the purchase of a gun washer and professional booth I guess that is what I will have to do.

I encourage everyone to write a letter to these folks so that they will get input on how to protect the environment and our hobby at the same time.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2005, 09:23 PM
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Barry K and MartinSR your comments please

Good point shoddy. Thats the problem we have is everyone is talking, but no action. I will send out mine tomorrow, just so i am heard by someone who may be able to help us. But i also dont think this will all happen for a very long time, and i may not be around to even see it, so lets not get to excited yet. But keep up on it so we know whats going on.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2005, 09:46 PM
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Thanks bloverby, that was very informative.

It sounds like the EPA will do it similar to what is done for purchasing refrigerant.
I found a web site that offered online testing, studied their guide for about an hour, paid a nominal fee, took their online test and got mailed the certification.

I can now purchase any refrigerant.
It will be OK with me if they do something similar with automotive paint.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 11-13-2005, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by milo
From My Cold Dead Hands,,,
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 11-13-2005, 04:53 PM
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It's all the greedy bloodsucking oil companies fault!
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2005, 10:38 AM
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Boycott The NADA, NEVER Buy A New Car

I have contacted my reps and reps in other areas of the country to put a stop to this power grab by body shops and the NADA (National Automobile Dealers Association). We need to start a boycott of these bastards right now. Stop buying new cars immediately and tell the NADA why.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2005, 01:03 PM
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I have said it before and I will say it again, I think it is COUNTER PRODUCTIVE to tell your representatives that you are home spraying paint. There are Fire or building ordinances in every county or city that I know of that says you can't paint in your garage or any inclosed area that doesn't exchange air a certain times an hour (a spray booth). It says all over the cans "FOR PROFESSIONAL USE ONLY".

I don't know if I am right or wrong, but I just have to wonder if sending a letter to your representiative that says "I love painting in my suburban home and my neighbors have never complained about the dangers and nuisance of my overspray and vapors I create"

I honestly think it is better left up to the paint manufacturers and lawyers to defend their sales dollars.

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