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Old 11-21-2007, 11:58 PM
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Base Coat / Clear Coat Qusetions

I will be putting a new paint job on my 69 Camaro this spring and I have a few questions,#1 how soon must I put the clear on after the base, reason it's a Z-28 and I want to clear over the stripes . The paint will be Cortez Silver with Black stripes. #2 Should the same kind of paint be used for the stripes and I was also told I DO NOT have to scuff between the base and clear as long as I paint in a certain time period. I will be happy for any advise you have for me as I don't want to mess it up, thanks,,Joe joepatrick2@yahoo.com
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Old 11-22-2007, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOEPATRICK2
I will be putting a new paint job on my 69 Camaro this spring and I have a few questions,#1 how soon must I put the clear on after the base, reason it's a Z-28 and I want to clear over the stripes . The paint will be Cortez Silver with Black stripes. #2 Should the same kind of paint be used for the stripes and I was also told I DO NOT have to scuff between the base and clear as long as I paint in a certain time period. I will be happy for any advise you have for me as I don't want to mess it up, thanks,,Joe joepatrick2@yahoo.com
1) depends on base, most recommend around 24 hrs. So if you sprayed the last coat of your first color of base one day at 5 should try to get car based and, taped off and striped and first coat of clear by 5 the next day. I've seen some bases say 48 hrs. They probably error on the side of saftey in their recommendations. Some graphics guys have said they have gone past windows with no problems, but try to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer, and get the product data sheets for you products, this information and other about proper use will be in them. spraying a clear intercoat can extend your open window times and also be used to help prevent marking or finger printing your silver doing the black stripes. You combo I'd choose a primer or sealer color that will be easy to cover with the silver, spray the silver first, then the black stripes for easiest coverage. There is a black and silver mustang in my gallery. Since I had a one wide stripe, I only painted silver up past where it needed to be, and sprayed the black stripe over primer and the silver overspray. I didn't use an intercoat, and was carefull masking to not touch the base too much.
2) I'd use the same brand/line of base to be assured of compatability between the two. You do not need to sand base at all unless there is a problem, and then wherever you sand should have more base applied. Sanding a metallic also disturbs the metallic pattern and would likely lead to a blotchy appearance when cleared if more were not sprayed. I'd also activate the base or choose one that gets activated, and do not use too fast a reducer/ activator speed. Also allow as much time to clear as possible after the black, black is a slow color and clearing over it too soon could lead to solvent pop and other problems.
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenseth17
I'd also activate the base or choose one that gets activated, and do not use too fast a reducer/ activator speed.
Now I'm confused. Is the activator different than normal reducer and/or is it different than the hardener? Most of the paint sites I've been researching talk about and offer a hardener and reducer with the base but I haven't seen reference to something else called an activator. Maybe just explain the activator concept a bit more.
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:43 AM
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Great color combination .

Vince
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:12 AM
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I have to tell you, masking off a base coat and applying another color over it before clearing is asking a lot from a first time paint job. The base is very sensitive prior to clear and can be damaged very easily compared to a SS or urethane clear like you are used to. A bare basecoat is a whole different animal. I would seriously think about spraying the color and clear just as normal and then laying the strip over the top. If you mask it like this...Click here for the "Basics of Basics" to two tone masking you will be much better off. If you don't build up material, just shoot to cover and then two coats of clear, NO MORE. And then buff over the thing you will only have a tiny edge. And how was that stripe applied at the factory when your car was new, just like this, over the top. It wasn't buried in clear, it was shot over the top and you could feel the edge.

Use a strip masking kit and lay it over a cured clear and you will be much better off.

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Old 11-22-2007, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
Now I'm confused. Is the activator different than normal reducer and/or is it different than the hardener? Most of the paint sites I've been researching talk about and offer a hardener and reducer with the base but I haven't seen reference to something else called an activator. Maybe just explain the activator concept a bit more.

"Activator" or "Hardener" it is all a matter of semantics. It's like a "Fiddle" or a "Violin" it depends on who you ask. Though in the chemical engineer communitiy there maybe some "correct" way to use them in different circumstances. I do know that they are largely a "marketing choice" as to use.

Brian
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:29 AM
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Tip, when masking off stripes on fresh base do not use masking tape, use 3M Fine Line tape instead. It will give a sharper line and has less tack than masking tape and is less likely to lift the base.

Vince
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
"Activator" or "Hardener" it is all a matter of semantics.
If they are one in the same, then I'm further confused by Kenseth17's quote, at least this part "...activate the base or choose one that gets activated." Aren't all base coats "activated" with a hardener in a BC/CC urethane application? I suppose this might apply to a lacquer or early enamel that normally would not have a hardener. But are there other BC/CC paints that don't require hardeners?

I don't want to be overly picky here...just trying to make certain I understand the terminology, process and components before I tackle a BC/CC project myself.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
If they are one in the same, then I'm further confused by Kenseth17's quote, at least this part "...activate the base or choose one that gets activated." Aren't all base coats "activated" with a hardener in a BC/CC urethane application? I suppose this might apply to a lacquer or early enamel that normally would not have a hardener. But are there other BC/CC paints that don't require hardeners?

I don't want to be overly picky here...just trying to make certain I understand the terminology, process and components before I tackle a BC/CC project myself.
NO, a BIG NO, there are bases that don't use an activator! In fact, MOST did not until a few years ago. Plus, some use an "reactive reducer" and no "hardener or activator" is used so one may think it is not an activated base as well. But for years, Chromabase, S-W Ultrabase and many others had no activator, no hardener, NOTHING but a reducer and mixed one to one. That mixture could be put on the shelf and left there for years, it was not activated. Then some recommendations came along to add a "cap full" of the hardener used in your clear to it. Then along came some reactive reducers. But there are still some that use none unless you choose to.

Brian
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:58 AM
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Thanks Brian...I think I've got it now.
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Old 11-22-2007, 09:19 AM
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No not all basecoats are activated. Many have the option to activate. And some like duponts chromabase, which I believe may have some activator in the reducer the "basemaker" or ppg had what was called reactive reducer. Dupont also besides useing the basemaker, also gives the option of using a seperate activator. All a bit confusing if your not a chemist and what all goes into each of these. A base like dbc which gets reduced with normal reducer, you can normally add a capfull of your clearcoat activator to activate the base instead of buying a seperate activator and use any good grade brand of reducer. On the other hand, ones that call for special reducer, you are best off using the correct reducer that is called for. Maybe Barry would care to elaborate further on the issue. But in short, not all base calls for activator, but doing so will help repairability as well as durability. Use a good quality base and the same for your second color, as well as a good quality tape and press down and mask good so don't get color past masking, such as the fine line tape such as vince suggested, and don't think you should have too many problems. Your spraying the same base, just a different color. A good base will dry quickly to tape on where as a cheaper enamel based one will be much slower. Painting a metallic I would think would be a bit more challenging for a newbe (although not undoable without some practice and homework)with hardly any gun time, then laying on some stripes that you have measurements or templates for, but maybe thats just me.
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Old 11-22-2007, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenseth17
1) depends on base, most recommend around 24 hrs. So if you sprayed the last coat of your first color of base one day at 5 should try to get car based and, taped off and striped and first coat of clear by 5 the next day. I've seen some bases say 48 hrs. They probably error on the side of saftey in their recommendations. Some graphics guys have said they have gone past windows with no problems, but try to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer, and get the product data sheets for you products, this information and other about proper use will be in them. spraying a clear intercoat can extend your open window times and also be used to help prevent marking or finger printing your silver doing the black stripes. You combo I'd choose a primer or sealer color that will be easy to cover with the silver, spray the silver first, then the black stripes for easiest coverage. There is a black and silver mustang in my gallery. Since I had a one wide stripe, I only painted silver up past where it needed to be, and sprayed the black stripe over primer and the silver overspray. I didn't use an intercoat, and was carefull masking to not touch the base too much.
2) I'd use the same brand/line of base to be assured of compatability between the two. You do not need to sand base at all unless there is a problem, and then wherever you sand should have more base applied. Sanding a metallic also disturbs the metallic pattern and would likely lead to a blotchy appearance when cleared if more were not sprayed. I'd also activate the base or choose one that gets activated, and do not use too fast a reducer/ activator speed. Also allow as much time to clear as possible after the black, black is a slow color and clearing over it too soon could lead to solvent pop and other problems.
Thanks for your information, this is not my first time painting but it is with bc / cc and I can use all the info I can get, thanks again,,Joe
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Old 11-22-2007, 11:20 AM
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Good tips

Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
Tip, when masking off stripes on fresh base do not use masking tape, use 3M Fine Line tape instead. It will give a sharper line and has less tack than masking tape and is less likely to lift the base.

Vince
Vince, thanks for your tips, that sounds like the way to put the stripes on then I shouldn't have to worry about the drying time of the base, the 3M tape is also a great hint, I used electriclt tape once because I thought it would come off better then masking and it did with the clear coat with it, thanks again,,Joe
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Old 11-22-2007, 04:29 PM
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When you remove the Fine Line tape pull it straight back onto itself, not straight up.

Vince
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Old 11-22-2007, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenseth17
No not all basecoats are activated. Many have the option to activate. And some like duponts chromabase, which I believe may have some activator in the reducer the "basemaker" or ppg had what was called reactive reducer. Dupont also besides useing the basemaker, also gives the option of using a seperate activator. All a bit confusing if your not a chemist and what all goes into each of these. A base like dbc which gets reduced with normal reducer, you can normally add a capfull of your clearcoat activator to activate the base instead of buying a seperate activator and use any good grade brand of reducer. On the other hand, ones that call for special reducer, you are best off using the correct reducer that is called for. Maybe Barry would care to elaborate further on the issue. But in short, not all base calls for activator, but doing so will help repairability as well as durability. Use a good quality base and the same for your second color, as well as a good quality tape and press down and mask good so don't get color past masking, such as the fine line tape such as vince suggested, and don't think you should have too many problems. Your spraying the same base, just a different color. A good base will dry quickly to tape on where as a cheaper enamel based one will be much slower. Painting a metallic I would think would be a bit more challenging for a newbe (although not undoable without some practice and homework)with hardly any gun time, then laying on some stripes that you have measurements or templates for, but maybe thats just me.
----------------------------------------------------------------


What I am about to say only applies to the premium or good grade bases, the enamel conversions to base, I have no idea, as that system is older then I am, so if the base smells like enamel, you are on your own.

The idea of activating base started in the early 1990ís or late 80ís, do not remember what year exactly but it was the first year GM started the approved paint for warranty work test.
At that time for $250,000 they would test your base system and either approve or not and the problem was, no one could pass the test. Everyone failed and I believe it was BASF that first passed and they did it by activating the base. Of course everyone else followed suit and to this day, the Ford and GM test that is renewed every year cannot be passed with out an activated base.
For a bodyshop to qualify for warranty last I knew BASF and DuPont required the base to be activated but Iím not up on this so not sure the status at this point.

Any good base be it made with an acrylic polyol or a polyol and polyester mix has enough reactivity built into the core resin that it will react to an ISO. Some can take more then others and the exception to the good bases would be the PPG reactive base system as the reactive reducer has an iso in it for metallic control and to stop the frying / lifting if repainted, so does not need an activator added but a lot of people do and swear by the extra amount.

Safe bet is of course buy the activator made for the base but the other option is add anywhere from a capful from a clear activator can to as much as 2 oz per mixed quart.
Some of the polyols are so strong they could handle an 8:1 mix even with out DBBL added into the base (and it is not) but these are a few of the real high dollar bases and you donít need to be adding that much.

Either way, even a capful makes all the difference in the world as far as adhesion to the substrate under the base and the adhesion of the clear to the base.
Best money you can spend.
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