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Old 10-01-2005, 03:53 PM
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Base coat disaster

Ok, after months of other projects I finally got around to spraying my Mustang but I have suffered a major screw-up. From the beginning- stripped to bare metal and DA,ed with 80 grit, two coats of epoxy followed by a couple of coats of Evercoat Slick Sand, sanded with 180 then 240 and topped with Nason 2k primer surfacer. This has set for months as I had other projects to attend to but today, after a final sanding with 360, I applied a sealer and waited about 30 min,then shot the first coat of Nason base, so far no problem but on the second coat after 45 min. flash I got lifting(heavy wrinkling) on the roof on a spot about 3"x6" and another one about 1"x2" also on the roof, on the sail panel I have very small lifting over about half the area. At this point I don't care so much about what caused this as what to do about it, I really don't even know where to start as to how to fix this so any advice will be GREATLY appreciated.

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Old 10-01-2005, 05:48 PM
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Hmm, wonder why you got lifting, all I can see is something with the sealer as you used 2k primer that has sat a long time. But for lifting of the base, I would sand the lifting out and spray the base fairly dry on the area and leave plenty of flash between coats to not get a lot of solvent attacking what ever is lifting. If the base has sat past your window then unfortunately you will have to scuff all the base and spray on another coat. I haven't ever used the nason line, so not sure what more to tell you. Hopefully you will get some more opinions shortly.
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Old 10-01-2005, 06:28 PM
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I think you have said it all kenseth. I am thinking the sealer wasn't fully flashed in those spots and the solvents from the base got under it. It is likely in a place where you "double coat" and the sealer and or base was applied a little heavier.

Brian
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Old 10-01-2005, 08:12 PM
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When I said 45 min flash that was between coats the lifting started almost immediately upon shooting the second coat and I had not noticed any problem with the first coat. The 2k was sanded a little thin in places but I thought with the sealer that would be ok. I used the sealer because the doors and fenders were a different color and I wanted a uniform base but whatever the cause of the problem I need to fix it so the plan is to wait until Monday to buy some more 2k and then sand the dang thing down and re-prime it, shoot it again with no sealer. Maybe it would be better to just repair the bad spots and spot paint but by then I am going to have to re-sand the whole thing anyway
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Old 10-01-2005, 08:27 PM
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"Lifting" is caused by solvents getting under a substrate, period. So, either the urethane primer was sanded too thin and wasn't sticking that good to begin with, AND the sealer solvents started to get under it, then the base solvents finished it off. Pretty hard to say.

I do know one thing, I don't ever use a sealer if the panel is completely primed with a 2K primer. I have zero problems because of this. I don't like the idea of just piling on products when they are no needed. But if you were to prime it so all panels are the same and then sanded and painted, you are going to be safe.

Just be sure you get a good uniform film build on EVERY SINGLE SQUARE INCH. Then just sand it good enough to knock the orange peel off prior to painting.

Brian
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Old 10-01-2005, 08:42 PM
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That is my thinking on the 2k-The whole thing will be the same with no sealer. That is what I wanted to do anyway but I did not have enough 2k primer on hand and did not want to wait until Monday but unfortunately I did have the sealer. I will know better next time.
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Old 10-01-2005, 09:49 PM
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I've had small spots lift before, usually if the clear is still a bit fresh from spraying jambs then the base lifts, or repairing a bad spot and if repairing an area spraying an epoxy on the spot and not waiting long enough. I haven't had as large of an area is you describe though. When I did get lifting, since base drys rather quick, I let it sit maybe an hour and then wetsanded the lifted area out, then sprayed more base on the area, but you have to be real carefull and not spray very wet or it would lift again. If I remember right I would get the lifting out with a courser grit like 400 and then go over with finer grit. Don't load up paint on the area to quick, light coats with plenty of flash time between. Once I could get the base on without it lifting in that area, for some reason the clear went on fine. Probably in a bad spot since probably don't have a convient edge to tape on, but if it was in a better spot like on a small panel, you could finish basecoating since other panels didn't lift, and then clear everything but that panel, maybe just in from the edges of the panel aways. Then you could deal with that one area later and not sand the whole car down again. Just repair that panel, spray your base and blend if you think it won't match if you panel painted it since the edges have clear on them to sand and not wreck any metallic in base, and then clear. If you can understand all that. Or maybe its best to wait another day if you aren't in the right mood for painting anymore, even if its a bit more work, material.
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Old 10-01-2005, 10:02 PM
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Red, I got off track, as I said in my first post, give what Kenseth said a try. If you "dust" the base on after sanding the wrinkles flat (or out completely) you can get away with murder if you LIGHTLY dust base over it a few coats with PLENTY of flash to build up a layer to protect it.

Now, I have to say, you are still playing with fire because if you don't get it built up and or the clears solvents are "hot" you could end up with the problem when you clear. But honestly, I have babyed thru some pretty funky wrinkles to get a car out the door without starting over.

Brian
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Old 10-02-2005, 03:16 AM
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Another one here that uses the dust-on method for such problems.

Personally, I sand down the wrinkles, then just feather the trigger to give plenty of air / very little base. I then use a tack rag to remove the very dusty stuff around the edges, to minimise adhesion problems. A couple of coats like that, with extra flash time, and you're sorted.

It's by no means the 'text book' way of doing things, but in a production shop where reworking would kill all the profits in a job, and where schedules are tight, it does the trick
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Old 10-02-2005, 08:53 AM
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What kind of "sealer" did you use?

I've had some wrinkle problems on 2 different repair job's and the common product was a dupont sealer over 2K. Like posted above. I just sanded them flat and lightly built my base back.
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Old 10-03-2005, 05:06 AM
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Oldred, what sealer did you use? I think the sealer may be what caused the problems. When you sand into it you'll probably be able to see what product did the wrinkling. Bob
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Old 10-03-2005, 10:59 AM
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Bob, I started sanding on it last night and it was definitely the sealer(Nason) that lifted but the curios thing about it was that it lifted over where I had sanded the thin spots in the 2k revealing the polyester primer underneath and nowhere else I have been sanding it with 600 grit wet and it looks a lot better than I expected so I think rather than add more material I will try the "dusting on" method first since that sounds like a good idea to me. BTW, even though I am wet sanding this thing the paper loads up terrible is this normal for base? I know base is not meant to be sanded and I mixed exactly the right amount of activator and reducer but after 48 hrs I would have thought it should sand better than that and I hope this is not an indication of a problem.
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Old 10-03-2005, 11:05 AM
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It's normal for the base to be hard sanding. Like I said "lifting" is caused by solvent getting under a substrate, PERIOD. Your urethane primer was sanded thin, the solvents from the sealer got under it.

What was the polyester primer sanded with? It may have been to fine of paper and the urethane didn't have enough to bite on.

Brian
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Old 10-03-2005, 01:35 PM
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Since I'm not familiar with Nason products I took a look at the Nason Sealers listed here: Nason Sealers

I noticed, it looks like two of the sealers are 1K products and the other two are 2K. Oldred, which one did you apply?
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Old 10-03-2005, 02:46 PM
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Ok, I lightly dusted several coats on the trouble spots, then LIGHTLY sanded with 800 grit to remove over spray(base coat dust) and then shot two regular coats after waiting 1 hr and everything seems to be on track now-THANKS EVERYONE! I will clear it first thing tomorrow morning and we will see how it goes from there.
Martinsr-I had finish sanded the polyester with 240 but I sanded the break through areas of the 2k with 400 to feather edge but as soon as I realized that was where the trouble spots were I thought about what you said about adhesion and I figure that after sanding with 400 that sealer will not stick very well to the polyester.

Bob-It is the 1k sealer, that is what the store recommended for Nason base and is the first choice listed in the spec sheet but I will never use it again and in fact I have already tossed what I had left! Also I will never use Nason base again, several people told me that since match was no concern, for over-all paint the Nason was really good and I would be happy with it and save some money to boot but I have found it takes so much to get proper coverage you really don't save a thing so why bother?

Again thanks to everyone you have all been a BIG help as I was really lost as to the best way to fix this and at this point it looks like I will be able to make it work. If it comes out like I hope I will try and post some pics if I can figure out how to do so

Thanks again
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