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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2012, 01:09 PM
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What a mess!!! reading through the original post i would say proper times and everything else was followed to the tee and I have no doubt, everything was activated properly and of most concern would be the primer as over activating can cause this but the time frame is very important as well as humidity and i don't think this is the case at all because even then it will not just come off but takes a good chip to work it loose.

Activating the base actually increases adhesion so we know that had nothing to do with it.

With the above it really only leaves 3 possible causes:
*Primer was sanded when very fresh and then sat to long and closed up cells.
*Waterborne cleaner was still in primer pours and broke adhesion as paint dried.
* first coat of base was dry sprayed or covered from over-spray if other parts of car were painted first.

My best guess would be primer closed up but the big flakes are acting like trapped cleaner and that confuses me, so I wonder could it be a combination of 1 and two 2? It kind of sounds like it.

You mise well bite the bullet and lay some two inch tape on the other panels and snatch off to see if you have adhesion in those spots.
If you do, that kind of points to 1+2 on the doors.

This is the best I can come up with but let me know and let me know what you need to finish doors up, if you are running short.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2012, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad4321 View Post
As swvalcon said, Barry recommends adding activator to the base and intercoat. I have done this before without issue, so I do not think that is it.

The primer I used is "regular 2k" from SPI. That is what it is named. Yes, it is urethane primer.

I did not wet sand. I always dry sand primer. The primer was shot and sanded the day before. It was approx 12 hours inbetween applying the primer and the base. The last coats of primer were block sanded first with 320 and then 600. I was wondering myself if I missed a spot sanding when I first seen it flake off, but I didn't miss the entire door.

After sanding, I clean with waterborne wax and grease remover and a white, lint free cloth until no more dirt shows up. The towel comes out clean. I give the waterborne about 30 minutes to dry with the booth fans on.
I have a thought. I have been told that dryer sheets and fabric softeners can contaminate surfaces. Is it possible this clean white towel could be an issue?

John L
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:02 PM
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"4 coats of TCPGlobal's Restoration Shop basecoat was applied"
"The basecoat was activated with SPI clear coat activator."

Are these two products compatible? Does the data sheet for TCP Global basecoat specifically say to use SPI activator?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:20 PM
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I'am sure tcp doesn't recommend a activator but I've used it in house of color, wanda, ppg, omni,and not had any problems so I dont think that is it.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:22 PM
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I don't think so either but I am sorry, there is NO WAY I am going to mix brands like that.

Brian
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Old 09-22-2012, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
It wouldn't "heal" (from what I understand) from that as much as it would simply have solvents that didn't fully flash. But if this was left for a day it would certainly have flashed and sanding it open, though a little too soon would have helped it flash. After 12 hours of cure time before base this is pretty much a moot point I think, I think that is.

Brian
I never said I believed it would heal. I never seen that before to be honest.

I think his problem is with waterborne in itself. The technology has come a long way but it's still in its infancy and you HAVE to keep it all on one system, unlike solvent borne where you can use different products and get good results. Not saying you can't get away with it using a certain combination of products but your chances of problems increase when spraying waterborne basecoats and not sticking to one brand through the entire paint process. I agree, Martin. We agree on something!
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Old 09-22-2012, 12:43 AM
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I got this off global web site on top coats peeling from base> TCP Globall
The first thing I thought about was the addition of fish eye eliminator I saw this same thing at a shop that added eliminator to the base! I'm not familiar with water born!!!
Jester

Last edited by painted jester; 09-22-2012 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
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I got this off global web site on top coats peeling from base> TCP Globall
The first thing I thought about was the addition of fish eye eliminator I saw this same thing at a shop that added eliminator to the base! I'm not familiar with water born!!!
Jester
Had to redo this LOL it didn't post and now its posted twice LOL but it also said the main cause of base coat peeling in sheets was moisture when I did a search on their site

Last edited by painted jester; 09-22-2012 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:20 AM
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I never said I believed it would heal. I never seen that before to be honest.

I think his problem is with waterborne in itself. The technology has come a long way but it's still in its infancy and you HAVE to keep it all on one system, unlike solvent borne where you can use different products and get good results. Not saying you can't get away with it using a certain combination of products but your chances of problems increase when spraying waterborne basecoats and not sticking to one brand through the entire paint process. I agree, Martin. We agree on something!
You act like that never happens, of course we agree, we do all the time.

Brian
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
Solver Index

I got this off global web site on top coats peeling from base> TCP Globall
The first thing I thought about was the addition of fish eye eliminator I saw this same thing at a shop that added eliminator to the base! I'm not familiar with water born!!!
Jester
Yep, so often when trouble shooting you need to be like a cop and ask lots of questions. As a paint rep, oh my God I have example after example of painters with failures who just didn't tell the whole story and getting product for free from the rep is all they thought about instead of LEARNING something. It could be as simple as fish eye eliminator. I don't think so in this case though. He laid everything out pretty well as far as what was done. But you never know.

Brian
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
Solver Index

I got this off global web site on top coats peeling from base> TCP Globall
The first thing I thought about was the addition of fish eye eliminator I saw this same thing at a shop that added eliminator to the base! I'm not familiar with water born!!!
Jester
This is a point every new painter should be a ware of, never use a fish-eye eliminator in a primer or base-coat.
About 15 years ago a shop in MS had the clear blow off a black base-coat Job he did on a Lexis allover, the car never made it out of the shop and the clear came off in sheets, never saw clear come off like that before or since but he had a real problem with the base and he added the fish-eye eliminator.

NEVER use it in anything but clear and you still should not use it.

Great post Jester, something everyone should know.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:49 PM
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On one of the threads we were talking about dumb mistakes we did in and around the paint booth over the many years some of us have been painting !! and one that came up a few times was adding a material from a can other then the one you thought you were adding especially when tired from hrs in and out of the booth! Especially when cans look alike with my age now I use tape and a marker and label my cans and when mixing on a note pad I write down what I just added!! I also write down what time I enter the booth and when I come out and what pass I just made LOL I dont know how many times over the years I answered the phone came back a few minutes later and forgot what I just added or thought is this my 5th or 6th passLOL and poring out the questionable mix and starting the mix over LOL I always order extra material ! But if you dont catch it and shoot you think everything is perfect till the next day LOL

Over the years Ive caught it just at that moment except once I was using material in cans that all looked the same and my wife just used the thinner to clean some bare metal in the shop before etching and she sat it on my mixing table and I grabbed it and used it as enamel reducer I went in the booth to shoot my 3rd heavy pass and man my wife's holding the hose behind me and yelling for me to stop somethings happening to the paint!!!!! the top of the quarter wrinkled like a fat woman's A S S and started falling off the car I opened the cup and could smell the lacquer!! ran out to the mix table and saw the can I immediately blamed her and the was on!! But it was my fault I was tired and not paying attention. Im sure all you older painters can relate LOL

Chris
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2012, 06:34 AM
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What about sabotage? I worked at a shop with four painters and the #1 didnt like it when his talent was rivaled he would add something to the W&G or the clear ,I wont say what because there are those that would do it.
I'm still thinking its the activated base but the water born W&G sounds like a good runner up,have you used activator in this base before?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2012, 07:28 AM
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I have thought about this non stop, every problem has a set of reasons, if first week in sun you get 4-7 bubbles here and there on the car, can be one set of reasons and if you get just bubbling on hood and deck lid can be another set of reasons.
Undried wax and grease removers will case certain problems, solvent trap-age another, mis-activating the substrate another but none of these causes paint to come off in sheets, like this. Easy chipping, poor adhesion, dieback, yes but not sheets.

The base worked great on the other parts of car but not doors, the base is not smart enough to say, I think I will screw up on these two panels and do OK on the others.--SO the base is perfect.

That only leaves something "in" the last application of primer or something "on it". Whatever it is, is extream, too cause this.
The primer must come off, as nothing will ever stick to it.

Paint just don't come off in sheets over primer, even if it was over activated, under activated or sanded with 3000 or not sanded at all, or closed up do ue too setting, even undried wax and grease remover the base will draw out and dissipate and you may see popping or fish-eyes but it still will not come off in total sheets, maybe a 2 inch spot and prone to chipping but not sheets.

Last edited by BarryK; 09-23-2012 at 07:37 AM.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2012, 10:54 AM
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Yep, there are patterns to most every failure. When you are dealing with problems every day in shops all over the place as when you are in the paint business there are patterns, they are so obvious it isn't funny. Same as in the collision business you can look at a car and tell the owner how it happen before they tell you, there are patterns that because so clear and cut and dry it isn't funny.

This one most certainly doesn't fall into any one common pattern. It is odd, after seeing failures day in and day out for years and you don't see something like this I can see it being in your mind non stop Barry, it is an odd one.

I still can't see it being anything but the perfect storm.

I remember I laid a stripe on an S-10 truck once, it went all the way around the truck in HOK candy. Now thinking back my mind gets cloudy on just what the problem was, but it was peeling or severe die back or something. Anyway the failure was directly related to a time issue, where as the portions of the stripe that were applied over the primer the soonest failed where as the stripe over the primer that last applied worked fine. It was as clear as day that the application time had EVERYTHING to do with the failure. All within one stripe! So the planets can be aligned on one area and not another.

Then stuff comes out of blue. I had a Ford truck that failed BIG TIME. We are talking a SS acrylic enamel complete that was striped to bare metal and primed. Sealed and painted, about a year later he came back and the paint was CHAUK! You could literally put your fingernails into it like a bear claw and scrap the paint off with your nails! Now the odd part, it was a color change. The door jambs and underhood were all perfect! Then it hit me, I had a test panel that I had painted and thrown up on the roof. I went up there and got it and you guessed it, PERFECT. WTF? I did a little detective work and found out from a friend of his (we are talking detective style fact gathering here, the guy didn't rat on him) told me he had waxed it with a sealant style wax at just a month old!

I refunded him his money but wasn't about to repaint that truck.

Every odd one, if you are there looking at it and are able to ask many questions and SEE how things are done you can usually figure out even those odd ones. And it's an easy to get passion to figure them out isn't it Barry! You get a high tracking down the cause. I can certainly see why it has been on your mind, it's hard to forget about one like this.

I am still thinking it is simply a perfect storm with just the perfect solvent entrapment and wax and grease remover soaking in kinda thing. Something made a "barrier" between that primer and paint! No lack of sanding could do that. You could paint right over an unsanded hood that was cleaned properly and not have it come off in sheets like that. There was a barrier, there was SOMETHING between the primer and paint, like a sheet of saran wrap laid over the primer and then painted on, there was something that totally separated the primer from the paint. No lack of sanding or hardener in the paint is going to do that! (I still will recommend never to mix products though). Nope, something is between the primer and paint, and the only thing this could be is solvent of some sort.

Brian
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