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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2012, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Brad4321 View Post
Thanks for all of the replies and discussion everyone. I have sanded down the doors. At approximently 1 foot past the door handle the basecoat starts to feather and stick properly. I can't find any loose paint outside of the door handle area (for both front doors). However, for a two square foot area around the handle, the paint has peeled off in sheets.

I use lint free disposable towels for wax and grease remover. They are not cloth and do not get washed and are in a "sealed" box until use. I do not use any fish eye eliminator and have never used any, or ever had the need too.

I have activated TCP's paint with SPI activator on three vehicles now with no issue, so I do not think that is the cause. Something getting under the paint seems like the logical cause to me as well. Maybe the temps and humidity was just right to not let the waterborne completely dry. I will be reshooting the doors this weekend and I am going to allow for additional dry time just in case.

I keep all of the chemicals in their original bottles. I mix up a quart at a time, so if I did mix in the wrong products it would have affected the entire doghouse.

I will re-read this thread a bit later when I have more time to try to understand all of the discussion. I will post an update on how it turns out and any other details I can think of. I appreciate everyone's effort to figure this out and Barry's offer. I still have plenty of supplies to finish this.
Just keep us posted.

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Old 09-25-2012, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by DanielC View Post
You are way more of an expert than I am with paint and paint products. In your experience, you probably have come across some odd combinations of products that work.

But for me, it is best if I stick pretty close to that the data sheet on the paint product recommends. I do not think it is wise to use a PPG activator in a Dupont paint, or primer, for example. I do not think SPI would recommend using some other companies activator, or hardener either, in one of their epoxies or paints.
Not true.

For years with my own base, I have told hundreds of people, use ANY automotive clearcoat activator in my base, if they did not have my clear at one ounce per Mixed quart.

Now, I would never say use my clear activator in PPG clear or any other clear as that is bad news as everyone has a different OH/NCO ratio that is not public knowledge.
Basecoat activation is different from point, there are a limited number of choices the automotive paint company's have as far as "Aliphatic type ISO's".
So that is why companies say, any activator from a clearcoat or SS urethane and never a primer type.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:58 PM
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It sounds as what ever you used to wipe around the door handles contaminated the area. Now the trick is to figure out what was different there. Maybe a silicone was applied to the handles to lubricate their pivot points? Maybe a silicone was used to make the handles shiny if they are of the mat black type. Maybe there was a buildup of a polish in and around the handles that contaminated your wipes.

I had a problem once with blue wipes. I had them in their original wrap and 12 of them were wrapped again into a Costco bundle. I stored them in a metal cabinet which also held unopened bottles of motor oil. The vapors from the oil had permeated the product wrappings and ruined the wipes for my use. Took me a few minutes to figure out why all of a sudden I had a problem, then it dawned on me, I used a new roll of wipes on that door.

Hope you figure it out soon, keep us informed.

Nothing I hate worse that when a thread as this gets forgotten and we never learn what the solution was.
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:11 PM
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I was thinking the same thing but couldn't come up with anything that could have been done different. But you are very right, one needs to really study what could have been done differently around the handles. The mystery continues!

Brian
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Old 09-26-2012, 05:28 AM
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Base coats have always been a mystery to me so a better understanding of them would help me be a better painter .Please excuse my ignorance but I have a few questions about them ....I've only activated base one time and until then I've never heard of it ,it was with Nason ful-base and although I've already been using for yrs The guy at the paint store asked if I wanted the activator with my order, activator?I said ,he said most guys dont use itso I tried it and didnt notice any difference. a few months ago I learned that Chroma base uses an activator I've used Chroma base for years alsoand never activated it....
So heres my question....
1) what are the advantages to activating the base when it drys fast without it????
occationally I need to sand my base from dirt or whatnot but its hard to do because it clogs the paper so quick even after it sits overnite
2) if I activated the base would it sand better?
3) is basemaker (chromabase) a reducer??? and can it be used to reduce other bases? I know other reducers shouldnt be used with chromabase. Right?
4) will activating work on ALL bases ????

Barry ,Using your clear made me LOOK like a better painter but talking to you and just knowing you has actually MADE me a better painter.....
DAM YOU...Now I'll never get to be a dentist..
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 09-26-2012, 07:02 AM
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So heres my question....
1) what are the advantages to activating the base when it drys fast without it????
occationally I need to sand my base from dirt or whatnot but its hard to do because it clogs the paper so quick even after it sits overnite
2) if I activated the base would it sand better?
3) is basemaker (chromabase) a reducer??? and can it be used to reduce other bases? I know other reducers shouldnt be used with chromabase. Right?
4) will activating work on ALL bases ????

Barry ,Using your clear made me LOOK like a better painter but talking to you and just knowing you has actually MADE me a better painter.....
DAM YOU...Now I'll never get to be a dentist..[/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mike, you are not ignorant, I had a call the other day from a guy and his paint jobber said, never activate base! The guy called me and I had a copy of that guys warranty for "certified shops" and it said "BASE MUST BE ACTIVATED FOR THIS WARRANTY"
Mike you can only know what the jobber tells you and most you can take with a grain of salt.

A little history how this started. Knowledge is king.
GM back in late 80's or early 90's for $250,000 GM would approve a basecoat system for their warranty work.
Well the majors all failed the first test and the first and only one to pass the second time was BASF, BECAUSE, they activated their basecoat-That was a new one, the others followed and also passed.

Activation, totally changes the base as most good bases have a certain amount of polyol in them that is reactive to the ISO but not a lot, so you don't want to over activate.
Most bases, will handle two ounces of activator per mixed quart, some like Spies, Glasurit and SPI will handle up to 4oz but a little makes such a big difference all you need to do is use 1 oz per mixed quart as a standard and that way there is no risk of over activating witch will cause the base to stay gummy.

Here are the benefits.
Better adhesion from base to sealer or primer.
Base may or may not sand better, depend on type of CAB's used to Make base.
Base will be stronger.
Base will be less likely to wrinkle if you need to get back into it.
Clear will stick better to base.
Base open time before clearing will expand.
Base will have better holdout from UV because of the ISO.
Less likely to stone chip.

Your choice, buy the diluted activator the paint company sells for easy measuring or use ANY clearcoat urethane activator at 1oz per mixed quart.

EVERY warranty of the major high end company's for their certified shops, they all say to get the warranty you must activate.

ANY job you need to live with you should activate, it costs you almost NOTHING. It is also a good way to use up old activator, I did painting around the 4th of July, lowest day was 101 and I used up my fast activator in the base, you are using such a small amount it makes no different the speed.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 09-26-2012, 09:52 AM
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The problem with telling people to cross manufacturers is it opens the door. You say "Use such and such clear coat hardener" and the person not familiar with the chemistry HEARS "All hardeners are the same". And this has nothing to do how smart anyone is, it is all about human nature. We hear what we want to hear.

This is why I will always say FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS!

Brian
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Old Fool View Post
It sounds as what ever you used to wipe around the door handles contaminated the area. Now the trick is to figure out what was different there. Maybe a silicone was applied to the handles to lubricate their pivot points? Maybe a silicone was used to make the handles shiny if they are of the mat black type. Maybe there was a buildup of a polish in and around the handles that contaminated your wipes.

I had a problem once with blue wipes. I had them in their original wrap and 12 of them were wrapped again into a Costco bundle. I stored them in a metal cabinet which also held unopened bottles of motor oil. The vapors from the oil had permeated the product wrappings and ruined the wipes for my use. Took me a few minutes to figure out why all of a sudden I had a problem, then it dawned on me, I used a new roll of wipes on that door.

Hope you figure it out soon, keep us informed.

Nothing I hate worse that when a thread as this gets forgotten and we never learn what the solution was.
great line of thinking and I'd like to add to that scenario...Perhaps the pocket under the handle collected the G&WR and he didn't get to wipe it down while wet to collect the particles risen to the top, or perhaps silicone was sprayed on the handles. That's very plausable.

In any case, the posts in here are great to give Brad ideas on what to look for, how detailed oriented things have to be, and a direction to start looking. Unfortunately, not all problems can be handled on-line and solved. Hope this isn't one of them. Keep us posted.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by BarryK View Post
So heres my question....
1) what are the advantages to activating the base when it drys fast without it????
occationally I need to sand my base from dirt or whatnot but its hard to do because it clogs the paper so quick even after it sits overnite
2) if I activated the base would it sand better?
3) is basemaker (chromabase) a reducer??? and can it be used to reduce other bases? I know other reducers shouldnt be used with chromabase. Right?
4) will activating work on ALL bases ????

Barry ,Using your clear made me LOOK like a better painter but talking to you and just knowing you has actually MADE me a better painter.....
DAM YOU...Now I'll never get to be a dentist..
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mike, you are not ignorant, I had a call the other day from a guy and his paint jobber said, never activate base! The guy called me and I had a copy of that guys warranty for "certified shops" and it said "BASE MUST BE ACTIVATED FOR THIS WARRANTY"
Mike you can only know what the jobber tells you and most you can take with a grain of salt.

A little history how this started. Knowledge is king.
GM back in late 80's or early 90's for $250,000 GM would approve a basecoat system for their warranty work.
Well the majors all failed the first test and the first and only one to pass the second time was BASF, BECAUSE, they activated their basecoat-That was a new one, the others followed and also passed.

Activation, totally changes the base as most good bases have a certain amount of polyol in them that is reactive to the ISO but not a lot, so you don't want to over activate.
Most bases, will handle two ounces of activator per mixed quart, some like Spies, Glasurit and SPI will handle up to 4oz but a little makes such a big difference all you need to do is use 1 oz per mixed quart as a standard and that way there is no risk of over activating witch will cause the base to stay gummy.

Here are the benefits.
Better adhesion from base to sealer or primer.
Base may or may not sand better, depend on type of CAB's used to Make base.
Base will be stronger.
Base will be less likely to wrinkle if you need to get back into it.
Clear will stick better to base.
Base open time before clearing will expand.
Base will have better holdout from UV because of the ISO.
Less likely to stone chip.

Your choice, buy the diluted activator the paint company sells for easy measuring or use ANY clearcoat urethane activator at 1oz per mixed quart.

EVERY warranty of the major high end company's for their certified shops, they all say to get the warranty you must activate.

ANY job you need to live with you should activate, it costs you almost NOTHING. It is also a good way to use up old activator, I did painting around the 4th of July, lowest day was 101 and I used up my fast activator in the base, you are using such a small amount it makes no different the speed.[/QUOTE]

Awesome post, and you are right! I'd also like to state I-Car also thinks your way. I'll have to remember, as you said, 1oz for each quart. I'll use that ratio for my car when it comes time to paint.
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:16 AM
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Awesome post, and you are right! I'd also like to state I-Car also thinks your way. I'll have to remember, as you said, 1oz for each quart. I'll use that ratio for my car when it comes time to paint.
I have to say ICAR says over and over and over and over, Follow the manufacturers recommendations! It is their line at the end of every guide line in every manual and ever class that they will say over and over, and over, and over. I went to an "Advanced systems" class once (ABS, SRS) and I wrote in the book I got from the class every time the instructor said "Follow the manufacturers guidelines" and I still laugh when I open it up as it is on EVERY PAGE.

Brian
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:58 AM
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I have to say ICAR says over and over and over and over, Follow the manufacturers recommendations! It is their line at the end of every guide line in every manual and ever class that they will say over and over, and over, and over. I went to an "Advanced systems" class once (ABS, SRS) and I wrote in the book I got from the class every time the instructor said "Follow the manufacturers guidelines" and I still laugh when I open it up as it is on EVERY PAGE.

Brian
yes I know, but they also say base coat is better with hardener, and yes I've been to the classes you speak of. I'm platinum certified at paint and soon body. I'm not here to say who's right and who's wrong or get in a pissing match, in fact, I already agreed to your notion that you stick to the manufacturers suggestion in a post earlier. Everyone is right to some degree in this thread. You don't always solve paint issues with your first guess and every wrong answer leads you closer to the culprit thru process of elimination. It could or could not be crossing product lines, but I do know crossing product lines can be done at times, and that also it can't. It just depends on the combination of products. The question is, has this combination proved to work on numerous occasions? Is just one area affected or the whole paint job? That will give you a good clue.

To be honest, I think we need to go off more clues and details to be of any more help to this fella. I think it's pretty common sense to everybody to follow the tech sheets but there's a lot of respected guys out there who cross product lines all the time. In a nutshell, I don't think any of us know enough about the paint session that led to this to automatically declare the problem is mixing product lines. It's kind of premature at the moment, for me at least, to feel confident that the problem is from mixing products. Everyone is entitled to their opinions though. How bout we get every last detail to what exactly went on including temps of spray time/cure time, even to how many flies were in the room...just for detail.

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Old 09-26-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
yes I know, but they also say base coat is better with hardener, and yes I've been to the classes you speak of. I'm platinum certified at paint and soon body. I'm not here to say who's right and who's wrong or get in a pissing match, in fact, I already agreed to your notion that you stick to the manufacturers suggestion in a post earlier. Everyone is right to some degree in this thread. You don't always solve paint issues with your first guess and every wrong answer leads you closer to the culprit thru process of elimination. It could or could not be crossing product lines, but I do know crossing product lines can be done at times, and that also it can't. It just depends on the combination of products. The question is, has this combination proved to work on numerous occasions? Is just one area affected or the whole paint job? That will give you a good clue.

To be honest, I think we need to go off more clues and details to be of any more help to this fella. I think it's pretty common sense to everybody to follow the tech sheets but there's a lot of respected guys out there who cross product lines all the time. In a nutshell, I don't think any of us know enough about the paint session that led to this to automatically declare the problem is mixing product lines. It's kind of premature at the moment, for me at least, to feel confident that the problem is from mixing products. Everyone is entitled to their opinions though. How bout we get every last detail to went on including temps of spray time/cure time, even to how many flies were in the room...just detail.
I have never said, not one single time that the hardener in the base had anything to do with this. I simply said FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS as I always do. As I said to Barry, when you tell people to go out of the tech sheets and mix products it opens the door for craziness which is exactly why manufacturers are very clear on stuff like this. The problem is most likely as discussed, the wax and grease remover, or the primer being "sealed". We may never know in this case.

Of course there are all kinds of times when you can, hell, there are many products that are made in one factory and labels from a number of different distributors are put on them thus making them "different brands" when in fact they are exactly the same. Or "toll manufactured" where it's raw form is made by one company and then modified by the end companies that market it. So there are times when products could be interchanged. It's just best to follow the tech sheets and that is the recommendation I make and want to make clear to all who read on these forums. You stated that ICAR says use it I just wanted to make clear to all those who just read that this is only half the truth. They say to use it it's recommended by the manufacturer.

I did NOT post my last post to argue, I posted it to make sure all who read this have the facts. Being you have been to all the ICAR class's you certainly would agree that is what they say, so there is no argument.

Brian
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:44 PM
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I have never said, not one single time that the hardener in the base had anything to do with this. I simply said FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS as I always do. As I said to Barry, when you tell people to go out of the tech sheets and mix products it opens the door for craziness which is exactly why manufacturers are very clear on stuff like this. The problem is most likely as discussed, the wax and grease remover, or the primer being "sealed". We may never know in this case.

Of course there are all kinds of times when you can, hell, there are many products that are made in one factory and labels from a number of different distributors are put on them thus making them "different brands" when in fact they are exactly the same. Or "toll manufactured" where it's raw form is made by one company and then modified by the end companies that market it. So there are times when products could be interchanged. It's just best to follow the tech sheets and that is the recommendation I make and want to make clear to all who read on these forums. You stated that ICAR says use it I just wanted to make clear to all those who just read that this is only half the truth. They say to use it it's recommended by the manufacturer.

I did NOT post my last post to argue, I posted it to make sure all who read this have the facts. Being you have been to all the ICAR class's you certainly would agree that is what they say, so there is no argument.

Brian
What I agreed on with Barry is about base w/ activator being superior, and that I-Car agrees to that , not about crossing product lines. I don't recommend it unless I KNOW it works first hand, as would most people. I'm nerdy about tech sheets but I'm also open minded to what works that not's mentioned. I think you've made your point clear as to what you think about crossing product lines but let's all wait it out and see what the problem really is. For the record, I doubt it has anything to do with mixing product lines, but I could be wrong, no shame in that.
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:39 PM
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peeling paint

I have been an automotive paint rep for 30 years. In the majority of times a peeling problem comes into the equation the problem is flash times. If you use a waterborn product or solvent flash times are crucial. It doesn't matter how long the manufacturer says paint should dry or how long you let your basecoat dry what matters is, is it dry? Slow reducer, cool temperatures, low hiding colour, side panels coming off in sheets all these tell me that the base was not completely dry. It may feel dry, however top panels will dry quicker than side panels as evaporation moves up, side panel would obviously take longer to dry. If not dry and clear coated with the clear coat using a catalyst (hardner) the clear will not just dry, it will cure. What happens to all the un-evaporated solvents in the base coat??? They want to come out, but the only way is to take the clear and in some occasions the base with it. Easy test...peel some clear coat of a painted panel, if you can smell solvents that means the solvents where trapped between your base coat and your activated cured clear coat. How to avoid the problem in the future??? We sweat to cool us down, if you like your finger and stick it in a breeze is it cooler? Same thing with paint, solvent or water born on metal has the sam effect. Feel your painted panels and feel the side of the both or a panel that has paint on it bit not recently repainted. They need to be the dame temperature. When they are. give your base another few minutes and continue with your next coat and avoid putting heavy coats of base on "low Hiding) colours, your only slowing your process down and asking for problems like this. hope this helps...69widetrack
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Old 09-26-2012, 05:01 PM
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Wide-track, you are a 110% right, from what i see in the last ten years as the polyols have gotten so good it is 99% of the time what you said and the other problem is people that drop coat their last coat of metallic and then a year later they get a stone chip and here we go, start peeling the clear off.

Great post!
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