[tech69]

69 widetrack, after reading your response I see the kid's point, and have dealt with that too. It's very frustrating. One thing I noticed about guys who don't want to share their knowledge or are hard headed, is that when they're stuck in that mode for far too long they end up lagging behind the technological changes in terms of newer and better approaches. I've seen a few guys that were clueless on how to address flexible substrates cause when those new industry standards came out they already thought they knew everything. My stance is that if you're gonna have that "I know everything" attitude show us your work or shut up!

It's always best to make aware that you are not perfect, you are willing to learn more, and that the learning never stops.

[69 widetrack]

Tech69 Your right? The day we stop learning is the day we die. The whole knowledge issue was an insecurity on the painters part and really, are we not all here to learn and share ideas?

[tech69]

I've done that too, admitingly. I once worked for a guy who wanted to get costs down. The jobs we were doing were turning out good at first, then he wanted to cut corners like crazy. Wanted show flat finishes with no orange peel but only put two coats of clear on it to save money??? That's just one example. He also had this kid that helped assemble stuff and wanted me to teach him. So I started to teach him and at first I thought it was a cool thing but then I realized this kid didn't value the important stuff and I felt he felt I was being too anal about procedures and what not, at the same time I smoked pot and it made me a little paranoid cause this kid worked for minimum wage and knowing how cheap my boss is I felt unsettled about the whole thing after a few weeks, so I then just focused on telling the boss he just didn't care to listen, which was true, but I could have been more patient with him, and one of the underlying issues for me was insecurity, which was just a byproduct of me knowing I myself still had plenty to learn. So instead of quitting pot I just got really good at a few select things and now I don't feel I have to worry or look over my shoulders. True story.

[painted jester]

Originally Posted by tech69

they'll do it for free if he's doing it in a shop. No shop-no dice.

I just retired and sold my shop I owned since the early '80s. And now do it at home (no overhead, good hours, I can walk to work 30 feet away ETC, LOL I can smoke cigars ( there's a no smoking law in Michigan) I can melt lead and weld, etc etc, but cant smoke!!!!!

A lot of paint co. are really good, When you spend 2000dollors on material for a basic paint job! I would call and ask you never know! And if you picked it up at a hardware LOL, Or an auto store the owner or manager that mixed or ordered your paint could and should have it done!


To the thread starter: I don't know if this was mentioned but the base could have been contaminated in the store before you even received it especially if they formulated it and put it in the can! A lot of stores store thier empty cans open in a back room or somewhere in the store and can be contaminated very easily!! The bumper to bumper stare close to me stores their cans right next to the drum & disk grinding machine( I dont order paint from there!!!!!

Jester

[69 widetrack]

Again I do agree. Cutting corners is usually a highway to disaster and more costs in the long run.

[69 widetrack]

The paint jobber can be your biggest asset or your biggest nightmare. If the people don't understand the paint technology how can they help. It's a good idea to spend at least as much time finding a qualified paint jobber as it is to pick a paint brand. Paint is paint and they are all made to work. Granted, some may have a better primmer or a more forgiving base and a better clear but like i said "paint is paint", it's the people behind the paint that need to be their for you when a problem arises.

[painted jester]

Originally Posted by deadbodyman

Its not just the young guys...The worst is an old fossil that wont admit theres a better way thats even easier and faster or they are simply doing it wrong ,they just WONT listen an have the "I'll show you" mentallity...try to show an old timer how to use W&G remover the proper way and see what happens.Or they have a flanged seam upside down so it holds moisture like a cup ..its unbelievable someone can be in this business for years and not know some of the basics....I think every bodyman should paint for a while and every painter should do bodywork so they know some of the reasons we have to do it a certain way to get to a final result and stop acting like a bunch of whinny little girls.it makes me sick.

No ones too old to learn, or we would still be painting autos with brushes like in the late 1800s!!!

Jester

[deadbodyman]

and only one color.......black

[Brad4321]

Wow...this thread has blown up with discussion since the last time I checked it. The "you have received a reply to your thread" e-mails did not come through. I am in a bit of a rush, but wanted to give you all an update.

I reshot the doors this weekend. I did everything the same except for wiping down with wax and grease remover the night before giving the waterborne approx 12 hours to dry. I still tacked right before shooting. I seem to have no adhesion issues and it all turned out good (and matches, luckily for me).

I have one last paint project this fall (my booth is not truly heated) which just so happens to be using the same material as I used on this truck. It will be the first white john deere I have seen in a while. In any case, I am going to do an experiment. I am going to shoot some old metal just like I shot the truck originally with the waterborne. I want to see if it will lift like the truck did. While anyone can do this test, I think I means the most if I do it with the same materials and same methods as I did originally. I will keep you all updated and will post a big response shortly.

[MARTINSR]

I like your way of thinking Brad. Glad to hear it came out well and I am glad to see you try to find out what the heck it was that happened. Let me suggest that on one of the test mules exaggerate the issue and TRY to make it fail by REALLY leaving it wet (not wet wet but you get the idea) slather it on primer that was heavily applied and probably still uncured, do that and do it more like you remember. That way you have a real good example of it failing.

Good for you Brad, can't wait to see it.

Brian

[boatbob2]

Painted jester,your story reminds me of the time my wife and i took our new Toyota pickup to dinner,when i walked to get the truck,,an IDIOT was checking his girls diamond ring,on the window of my new topper,i kicked him hard in the butt crack,with my pointed toe cowboy boots,that was probably the last time he checked a diamond on someone elses window,ill bet hes still walking lop-sided 22 years later...

[hinges56]

Great post with lots of good information! No matter what trade you're in, "When you think you know it all, you better get out of the business!" If you want professionals to share their knowledge, a person must have a good attitude. "Attitude is Everything!" Just my 2 cents worth. Scott

[deadbodyman]

One thing I always do when training a new guy is first show him the hard way and let them struggle for a while.For instance filler work,I'll show them how to mix it and put it on (that can be pretty funny in itself,watching them get it all over thier arms when mixing and all over the floor when applying it) but when they get that part down I'll let them let it harden up and start sanding and sanding and sanding 3-4hrs Then I'll stop by and ask if they want to know an easier way??? They always "oh God yes this is tough work"
then I'll apply some filler wait till it gets tacky and and sand it with a few strokes and a couple minutes later its done....They always say the same thing.....WHY DIDNT YOU SHOW ME THAT WAY FIRST?????? Well,if I showed the easy way you wouldnt know how hard it CAN be and the value of what I'm showing you ,would you???? it took me years to figure this out and you just learned it in a few hours.....The older more experianced guys are a little different I always wait for them to come over and ASK how I do my filler work so fast. Most times though they wont ask they'll just come by and watch while I'm doing it...I learned this trick from a drunk that could make more money in a week than most bodymen mdae in a month....So ,you really can learn something from everybody....

[Brad4321]

I have a few minutes in between epoxy coats, so I will go through the thread addressing anything I skipped the first time.

I use Wypall 05790 towels for wax and grease remover. I attached a picture of them and the box for reference. These are large, white, disposable towels. I used a different model in the past (wypall x60 if my memory is correct), but made the switch to these due to their durability. While the x60 is also lint free, it is fairly thin and rips easy (like a paper towel). These have the consistency of a shop rag: thick and durable. I buy these by the crate now as they also double as shop rags. It is actually cheaper and easier for me to use these disposable rags vs washable ones. Many mechanic shops are going to the disposable rags for this reason. I am still around 70% mechanical to 30% body work.

There is a bit of confusion early in this thread (tech69 and painted jester) regarding my waterborne wax and grease remover. I am still using all solvent based material, including basecoat. I have never shot waterborne base in my life. The waterborne I am referring to is the wax and grease remover, in comparison to solvent based wax and grease which I have used on every job up until this one.

I have never used or needed fish eye eliminator. Despite my less than ideal conditions, I take all of the precautions to ensure everything is clean, including my air lines and compressor inlet. I change air compressors every 5-10 years due to upgrades and service life. When my compressor goes down, everything shuts down. New compressors keep the impacts happy in the shop and the guns oil free in the booth. I am currently running a T30 ingersoll, which I am very happy with. However, I am nearing its capacity. I am currently eyeballing the new 10hp screw type quincy compressors with integrated refrigerated drier. Guess I am ranting a bit, but I love air, especially dry air.

Sabotage isn't likely. It is just me with one part time helper and this is his truck! He doesn't do any of the paint work, just mechanical.

Silicone on the handles is a possibility. While I have never sprayed any (and it doesn't look like any has been done), that is a possibility. Someone could have gotten crazy with it at some point. However, if this was the case, wouldn't the primer have flaked off the original paint instead of the base flaking from the primer? I don't really see this being the cause for this reason.

I am not intentionally ignoring Brian's recommendations on "follow the tech sheets", nor am I trying to be a junior chemist. I follow them to a T outside of the activating the basecoat. I trust Barry's advice on the activator. Before I activate a new basecoat with the SPI clear activator, I have always shot a test panel. It has always turned out great.

When it comes down to it, I am no different than anyone else here. While I do paint about 1-2 cars a year, I paint out of my 2 car detached garage with some box fans and a prayer. I have no training or knowledge outside of waking up one day and think "maybe I could do that". I started researching online and found hotrodders body forum. Reading all of the many posts here, I finally got the nerve to try it. This is my third year painting cars. Next year I am going to build an actual booth and start bodywork for real. I have never painted a car for a profit. All of the ones I have done have been friends or family up to this point. I hope to change that next year and I owe it all to the people here. Shine, DBM, Brian, Barry, crashtech, hell, the list can go on and on. I have been a diesel mechanic and welder for quite a few years now but have always wanted to excel in painting, and that just might happen. While I may not be painting cars all of the time, I do have a contract on industrial machinery (including farm tractors, assembly line equipment, metal fab equipment) starting next year. I am a bit excited as these will all be airbrushed, flakes, pearls, all custom work!

Tech69: There were 3 flies in the booth. All are in the roof .

Widetrack comments on flashing could always be a contributor. It was my concern shooting that day considering the colder temperatures and the fact I only had slow reducer. I do not make it a habit of touching the paint in between coats due to skin oils and such, but the base lost its gloss in about 1o minutes and I waiting 30 between coats. I am fairly, but not completely, confident that it had flashed. I painted just the other day at 61 degrees for the basecoat using the same setup as I did here without failure.

I did not use a sealer, and actually, I have never used a sealer. I always prime and block before basing. If I blow through the primer then I always reprime as the body is not ready. I have read that there is an adhesion benefit to sealer, but I don't understand how. Anyone care to explain the benefits of a sealer if the body is already one solid color?

Coming from the mechanical side (and managing new mechanics...), I understand the know-it-all attitude. It doesn't matter the age, it is all in the mentality. We all can't know everything. Just as tech69 does, I smile and nod to stay on their good side for when I could use their help, but don't think much of them otherwise. As time goes on, I need their help less and less, which makes me much happier. Holier than thou attitude doesn't sit well with me. As I slowly become the experienced one at my 9-5 job, I make a special attempt to be extra nice and helpful as I got thrown into the pit of *******s when I first started out, and that doesn't help anyone.

For my 9-5 job (diesel mechanic), there is no set apprenticeship time. You work with a more experienced person until they feel you are ready to go on your own. Then you start with the simplest jobs and slowly work your way up. I had a quite a few years previous experience and was set on my own in 6 months (the minimum time). When I became lead tech and did the training/evaluations myself, it was a true nightmare. I remember one guy in particular. He was twice my age and threw one hell of a fit his first day. He was too good to be in 3rd shift. Then the other employees were out to get him (they were not). When the work was beneath him and he started refusing jobs, we had a real nice clash and a refresher on what it takes to stay employed. The guy completely went off the handle, started threatening everyone on the shift. Called security to escort him out, but before they got there, he informed everyone that he was going to kill me. I got my 3/4 bar out of my toolbox and he took off like a little girl. He never even came back to pick up his toolbox. I didn't get much work done that night. My nerves were shot for the whole week. It doesn't matter what field you are in or how old you are, self-entitled *******s are everywhere.

Hope you all have a good attention span! I will have the test done in a week or so. I am slowing down a bit as I get older.

[69 widetrack]

WOW...After that rather lengthy response, not only has your epoxy primer flashed, you may want to consider giving it a quick scuff before you top coat it. Just joking.

I must say, after being on this site for only a short time, I see that there is a wealth of knowledge and opinions out there...you gotta love it.

All the best and hope it works out for you.

Ray