"Basics of Basics" Conv top pump/motor disassembly and rebuild. - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> General Rodding Tech
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2012, 10:39 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,119
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,294
Thanked 1,138 Times in 1,008 Posts
"Basics of Basics" Conv top pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

“Basics of Basics” Convertible top pump/motor rebuild
By Brian Martin

This “Basics” is more about demystifying the convertible pump system than anything else. I got the pump/motor back in my car and working so fast and with such excitement that I didn’t take any photos at all. So in deciding to put together a little “Basics” on the subject I just went and snapped some shots of the extra pump/motor I had. When I decided to pull mine apart I did a little google search and found nothing what so ever, thus the need for this “Basics”.
Where it all began…..I was putting my 1965 Buick Gran Sport convertible back together after about 12 years apart. Everything was finished on the car and being I am no mechanic I did the body and paint and left the convertible top stuff for the very end. To tell you the truth, I was pretty intimidated by it, but finally dug into it. The first thing I did was to install the rams that I purchased 12 years ago. The system worked when I pulled it apart and I forget why I even bought the new rams but I had them non-the-less. I got the motor and lines out of the rafters and blew out the lines with compressed air after removing them so I wouldn’t be dripping brake fluid all over my beautiful paint. I installed the rams and pump/motor and put in some new brake fluid (I HATE working with this stuff around paint!) and hit the switch……nothing. I mean nothing what so ever, not even a sound. After some diagnosis work I determined the pump/motor was the problem so I started thinking about buying a new one, which I found out was a off shore “generic” and I wasn’t going to have any part in that. And me being cheaper than snot I figured, I would pull the thing apart and see what it’s all about. I had a spare (a little newer, it had a rubber fill plug instead of the screw the original had) and decided to learn on the spare. These photos are of the original pump/motor so you will see the screw in fill plug in photo #2. We start with photo #1, these are the two bolts that hold the motor onto the pump. They are a ¼” headed bolt about 4 inches long that goes right past the magnets on the sides of the armature and screw into the pump body.



In photo #2 you can see the standard screw driver headed fill plug and the bolt that holds the reservoir to the pump. It’s simply an approx 3” long bolt that goes thru the middle of the reservoir into the pump. That bolt head looks pretty odd but a regular 11/16 open end wrench works on it.



The reservoir has a large O ring that seals it, (seen in photo #16) and a small O ring at the head of the bolt. (Photos# 16 & 17). When you remove that bolt and pull the reservoir off you will find the top of the pump as seen in photo #3. Remove the five quarter inch 7/16” headed bolts and you will have photo #4 and the pump it’s self photo# 5. You my have noticed if you looked at the photos that there is no gasket, it simply bolts right to the pump with the two aluminum surfaces being perfectly flat.





Photo #6 shows two of the only four moving parts in the pump (it’s crazy simple guys). I honestly don’t know what to call them. The larger ring looking piece goes in the hole in the pump, while the little star looking piece slips into the ring and over the end of the armature seen in the pump, refer back to photo #5. I ended up using parts from both pump/motors to make one. The ring thingie you see was so stuck in the replacement pump that I couldn’t get it out. I pulled the one out of the car at that point so I could get them both apart and see what parts I need. I ended up hammering a bolt into that ring so I could twist it and get it out of the pump. If this was the only one I had, I would have had to find another way. But to tell you the truth, I tried quite a bit before I resorted to the bolt. You can’t see it in the pictures because I have the bad part facing down. But I did ruin this piece. The original pump was stuck too, but I was able to get the piece out after a little coaxing. This was why the original motor didn’t turn. The pump was locked up solid! I have to assume the “rebuild kit” they sell for these motors would include this ring and star piece.



You can see the two ball bearings that go in the pump cover in photo #7. These ball bearings are what controls the fluid, directing the fluid to the hoses that will carry it to the bottom of the rams raising your top, or to the hoses that will carry the it to the top of the rams lowering the top.



In photo #8 you can see the round hole where that ring and star sit and the little O ring that seals the armature shaft as it comes into the pump. You can also see the passages that the fluid goes thru being pushed by the pump into the respective hoses.



These passages need to be cleared. They will likely have crusty gunk in there from loose chunks that fall right out to rock hard stuff that needs to be “chiseled” out with a sharp tool. Breaking this junk up and blowing it out with compressed air works like a charm. Cleaning out all the junk in these passages, where the two ball bearings are, and replacing the O rings at the armature, hose fittings, and if you want the reservoir and fill plug is all there is to “rebuilding” the pump! That’s it guys, it is that easy!

On to the motor portion and photo #9. After removing the two long bolts mentioned in photo #1 the motor pulls off the pump. Those two screws are the only thing holding it on. There is no gasket or seal, it simply pulls off easily. You can see in the photo a small washer on the armature (a rusty washer in this case), that is one of only four pieces that come out of the motor. Photo #10 shows the end of the motor with the brushes, and photo #11 shows the ball bearing that sits in the end of the armature and a little disc that sits at the bottom of the hole the armature goes in and the bearing rides on it.





To put the motor back together you have to be able to hold the brushes back to slip the armature in. The little disc can simply be dropped into place, the bearing I put a tiny bit of grease on it to hold it to the armature so insure it was in correctly. The next thing is those darn brushes, I got two paper clips and bend them as shown in photo #12. Obviously this isn’t rocket science so they look quite different from one an other but did a perfect job. As seen in photos #13-A and 13-B. Photo #14 shows the motor with the armature in place with the paper clips still there. After this point, you simply pull the paper clips out and there you have it.






The bolts that hold the motor together are honestly the only tough part to reinstall. You have to play quite a bit (at least I did) before I could get those buggers started into their threaded holes. Photo #15 shows how they pass thru the motor right next to the magnets. Sorry for the poor photo I just wanted to add it to demystify this darn bolt. You can see at the top of the photo a little half round pocket in the magnet where the bolt fits down to the pump on the other end of the motor.



Photo numbers 16, 17, 18 and 19 simply show the seals that are in the pump/motor assembly. I found them all in the A/C O ring assortment at the parts store. The large one I found that goes around the motor was smaller than the original and would have stretched out and worked but I just left the original there and it worked like a charm.





This is what the pump reservoir looked like on my original pump! Darn good thing the motor and pump didn’t work or I would have pumped this crap into my new cylinders!


Yes it is a darn good thing I went ahead and pulled the pump apart and rebuilt it. It worked the first time I tried it, just hooked it back up and turned the switch and wham, I had a working top pump/motor again. The other very good thing that came from it was I changed it out to run automatic transmission fluid, I am MUCH happier with something that won’t eat any paint like aircraft paint stripper!

It was also learned that these motors are very generic and all cars made for a number of decades from all manufacturers have very similar pump/motors.

I can’t believe that I was so intimidated by this whole thing, it was so damn simple I was blown away. I had it back and running in the car so fast I didn’t even have time to think. Now darn it, go out there in the garage and get yours working, it’s almost summer!

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to MARTINSR For This Useful Post:
masher (07-18-2012)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2012, 11:17 AM
cyclopsblown34's Avatar
Colorsanding painter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Russellville, Missouri
Age: 47
Posts: 976
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 99
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanks Brian, now can you demistify the cylinders? I rebuilt my pump and it pumps fluid both directions but I can't get it to raise or lower the top, I finally got the air out of the system but it is still laughing at me. it'll pull the framework down or up if I help it up to a point. i might have to break down and buy some cylinders. I've considered trying to put air to the cylinders and see if that'll lift the top.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 07:54 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,119
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,294
Thanked 1,138 Times in 1,008 Posts
I could cut open one of my old cylinders for you. But I don't think that will help. There is a test on the pump you can do, what make model and year are you working on? I am pretty sure from what I have learned that just about any make model or year is going to perform about the same and the pressure test that is in my 1965 Buick manual will work in your car. But they do have a trouble shooting test that requires you to check the pressure of the pump by unscrewing the hose and hooking a gauge to it. I can get you those numbers if you would like.

By the way guys, I missed one of the photos! After proof reading it a few times, I still missed a photo! CRAP, ok here it is.

Brian

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 08:11 AM
cyclopsblown34's Avatar
Colorsanding painter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Russellville, Missouri
Age: 47
Posts: 976
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 99
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Mine's a 1966 Skylark Special.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 08:13 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,119
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,294
Thanked 1,138 Times in 1,008 Posts
I had forgotten, sorry, I will get you that pressure number then. But honestly, you REALLY need one of these manuals, they can be found on eBay for less than what you will pay for a repro tail lamp lense. They are VERY useful.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 08:42 AM
cyclopsblown34's Avatar
Colorsanding painter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Russellville, Missouri
Age: 47
Posts: 976
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 99
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Is it the body manual?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 12:50 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,119
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,294
Thanked 1,138 Times in 1,008 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclopsblown34
Is it the body manual?
yep, it's there all 20 something pages of the manual and I have also been told I missed a few other photos.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 02:09 PM
cyclopsblown34's Avatar
Colorsanding painter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Russellville, Missouri
Age: 47
Posts: 976
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 99
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Body by Fisher 1966 service manual?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 03:36 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Nomenclature

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
...shows two of the only four moving parts in the pump (it’s crazy simple guys). I honestly don’t know what to call them. The larger ring looking piece goes in the hole in the pump, while the little star looking piece slips into the ring and over the end of the armature seen in the pump...
I recognize that type of pump from when I rebuilt a 351C, called a gerotor pump. But that's all I knew until looking at a diagram of one.

Seems the inner star-shaped piece is the rotor, or inner rotor. The ring-shaped piece is the idler or outer rotor. Just thought you'd like to know.

Great tutorial, BTW. I know I must have asked, but why not have this in the Crankshaft Coalition wiki? Is it the deal that anyone can edit the article (that seems to come up most often...).

Anyway,
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 03:53 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,119
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,294
Thanked 1,138 Times in 1,008 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I recognize that type of pump from when I rebuilt a 351C, called a gerotor pump. But that's all I knew until looking at a diagram of one.

Seems the inner star-shaped piece is the rotor, or inner rotor. The ring-shaped piece is the idler or outer rotor. Just thought you'd like to know.

Great tutorial, BTW. I know I must have asked, but why not have this in the Crankshaft Coalition wiki? Is it the deal that anyone can edit the article (that seems to come up most often...).

Anyway,
That's that's very interesting. I'll do some googling and learn a little more, thanks. On the Wiki, yes, personally, my "Basics" were written by me and I rather they didn't get modified. Jon asked me years ago about it and asked him not to and he honored that choice. There may still be a book or video or web site or something in the future for me and I don't want my stuff out there modified. Even though as you can see by me forgetting photos and such that I will screw them all up myself, I don't need anyone's help.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 11:26 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,119
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,294
Thanked 1,138 Times in 1,008 Posts
And here are the remaining photos I forgot.

Brian





Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 11:27 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,119
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,294
Thanked 1,138 Times in 1,008 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclopsblown34
Thanks Brian, now can you demistify the cylinders? I rebuilt my pump and it pumps fluid both directions but I can't get it to raise or lower the top, I finally got the air out of the system but it is still laughing at me. it'll pull the framework down or up if I help it up to a point. i might have to break down and buy some cylinders. I've considered trying to put air to the cylinders and see if that'll lift the top.
I have my original cylinders. I will look into how they come apart and what seals them. And I will get you that pressure reading too, sorry, I didn't go out to the garage tonight.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 08:29 AM
cyclopsblown34's Avatar
Colorsanding painter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Russellville, Missouri
Age: 47
Posts: 976
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 99
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
I think the original cylinders are not serviceable units as far as I can tell.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 08:53 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,119
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,294
Thanked 1,138 Times in 1,008 Posts
That's what I was thinking but haven't taken a look. But it's like I say about the "not serviceable" stuff, it isn't MADE out of one piece, they did assemble it SOMEHOW so maybe, just maybe WE can pull them apart.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:09 AM
cyclopsblown34's Avatar
Colorsanding painter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Russellville, Missouri
Age: 47
Posts: 976
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 99
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
That's what I was thinking but haven't taken a look. But it's like I say about the "not serviceable" stuff, it isn't MADE out of one piece, they did assemble it SOMEHOW so maybe, just maybe WE can pull them apart.

Brian
I do have one spare, maybe I need to look into tearing it apart and seeing if I can rebuild it. After all, it's junk whether I take it apart or throw it away without satisfying my curiousity and economic oncservatism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent General Rodding Tech posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Basics of Basics" Hood hinge spring removal and installation. MARTINSR Body - Exterior 3 02-14-2012 02:43 PM
"Basics of Basics" Bolt hole aligning tip MARTINSR Hotrodding Basics 21 01-26-2012 10:20 PM
"Basics of Basics" Lengthening or shortening a bolt or rod. MARTINSR Hotrodding Basics 10 01-04-2012 07:52 AM
"Basics of Basics" Rusted bolt in caged nut removal. MARTINSR Hotrodding Basics 3 11-11-2010 10:56 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.