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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 08:43 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogwater View Post
WOW!!!!!! Can you two tell me if its more better to pore in one oz. or one an one half ounces of 2 stroke oil into a gal. of gas.For my weed wacker.Just calm down.
It depends on the engine, but its better to be a little on the shy side than little on the heavy side- which is contradictory to what many people believe.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
It depends on the engine, but its better to be a little on the shy side than little on the heavy side- which is contradictory to what many people believe.
True. Since a carb meters by volume, when you add more oil it causes a lean condition. But it is kind of a moot point if you run a synthetic 2 stroke oil at a 100:1 ratio.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 09:36 AM
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If you want the best wet sump pump there is, get a Titan gerotor pump. For continuous use above 7000RPM, there is no better pump.
For more conventional SBC wet sumps, I use the BBC pump that is modified to put the bypas oil back in the pan rather than churning it in the gear housing.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Silver Surfer View Post
True. Since a carb meters by volume, when you add more oil it causes a lean condition. But it is kind of a moot point if you run a synthetic 2 stroke oil at a 100:1 ratio.
People learn this either by listening to those who know, or by sticking a piston at speed. Not fun when you're laid w-a-y over in a long righthand sweeper just tipping WFO into 6th gear...

My lesson came cheaply- just two and a half gallons of high test and some castor oil was all it cost me. Plus I was racing karts, not bikes. I could have remixed the fuel by adding more gas, but I didn't want to chance getting it wrong so I burned it in the 'yard wrecker. For a little while running it smelled just like the pits during a race!

BelRay and Klotz (among others) were selling synthetic 2-stroke oil even back then, but castor was what I learned on so I stuck (no pun intended) w/it throughout my kart 'career'.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
You apparently didn't talk to an engineer, likely just a secretary. And there's no reason to stop as long as you're willing to put forth more effort than playing with a calculator- that is NOT an "investigation". Half baked ideas just need more cooking time.
Ridiculing me for using a calculator while doing some basic analysis on the Chevy gear pump is not what Hot Rodding is about.
If you can't accept that the Chevy gear pump can be for comparison purposes defined with a math formula found in a hydraulics handbook than that is your right.

The formula i used is available online and in the Womack Educational Publications fluid power data book used by hydraulic engineers the world over, it's on page 25 titled "replacement of pump or motor"

Please feel free to present a more satisfactory formula that shows pump output so we can make a definitive comparison.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Cridder View Post
Ridiculing me for using a calculator while doing some basic analysis on the Chevy gear pump is not what Hot Rodding is about.
If you can't accept that the Chevy gear pump can be for comparison purposes defined with a math formula found in a hydraulics handbook than that is your right.

The formula i used is available online and in the Womack Educational Publications fluid power data book used by hydraulic engineers the world over, it's on page 25 titled "replacement of pump or motor"

Please feel free to present a more satisfactory formula that shows pump output so we can make a definitive comparison.

What you need to have any credible comparison is a graph for each pup that looks similar to this:

http://www.dynafloweng.com/pics/gear.../g34curves.jpg

Notice, pump speed, pressure, flow, fluid, and fluid temperature are all included. This is how REAL hydraulic engineers start to compare pumps.

FWIW, I know this because I do use it at work when dealing with water conveyance systems. And yes, I am a licensed engineer, so **** about what "engineers do". "Engineers" do all sorts of different ****, and SOME of it is even useful and correct, as a member of the club I can say there are a LOT of engineers that aren't worth the paper their degree is printed on. There are also some damn good ones who really do know what's going on.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
What you need to have any credible comparison is a graph for each pup that looks similar to this:

Notice, pump speed, pressure, flow, fluid, and fluid temperature are all included. This is how REAL hydraulic engineers start to compare pumps.

FWIW, I know this because I do use it at work when dealing with water conveyance systems. And yes, I am a licensed engineer, so **** about what "engineers do". "Engineers" do all sorts of different ****, and SOME of it is even useful and correct...
I believe he asked you for a better formula, not a bunch of side stepping and censored profanity.

Quote:
...as a member of the club I can say there are a LOT of engineers that aren't worth the paper their degree is printed on. There are also some damn good ones who really do know what's going on.
BTW, this begs the question: "What side do YOU fall on?" I mean, he asked for "... a more satisfactory formula that shows pump output...". Is this something that you are unable to provide? Shouldn't be that hard, you being 'all that and a bag o' chips'. Or did your degree come from ITT Tech???
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 12:31 PM
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I believe he asked you for a better formula, not a bunch of side stepping and censored profanity.

BTW, this begs the question: "What side do YOU fall on?" I mean, he asked for "... a more satisfactory formula that shows pump output...". Is this something that you are unable to provide? Shouldn't be that hard, you being 'all that and a bag o' chips'. Or did your degree come from ITT Tech???
No, University of Missouri- Rolla, and I'm damn proud of that school, hope to one day go back and teach.

As for the formula I provided it, you plot the system curve on the pump curve and viola you have expected pump output. That's not sidestepping, THAT IS THE FORMULA.

You can also do it by the displaced volume method as he originally did but then you need to multiply that by the pumps efficiency, which is variable and can also be plotted on a chart.

If you're really bored you could model it with a differential equation but that will vary depending on how complicated you get, you would need at least a variable for size, type, pressure, flow, two for efficency, pump speed, at least four for fluid properties. Again you can account for any variance in your equation but then you're getting more complicated than it would ever be worth.

Also, if you're going to go this far you may as well develop an equation for the system curve.

REAL engineers use pump curves and plot the estimated (or sometimes measured if its for a pre-existing system) system curve.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 12:35 PM
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You did NOT provide a formula. At best you gave a half baked formula for a formula, totally lacking in anything specific.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 12:37 PM
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You did NOT provide a formula. At best you gave a half baked formula for a formula, totally lacking in anything specific.
What do you think a formula is?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 12:57 PM
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What do you think a formula is?
I think you missed your calling. You ever consider politics?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 03:10 PM
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I think the problem is, AP72 is saying that coming up with a formula tedious and more than likely inaccurate due to real world variables, and as such is meaningless. The only way to rate a pump is to control as many variables as you can and make a graph since that is the true representation of what is going on. There will be no way to find the efficiency of a pump unless you measure it first.

Besides once you get the graph plotted out, who is to say that you can even retrofit a nice equation to fit the graph.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:42 PM
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We can solve it from here

Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
What do you think a formula is?
Learning to put together a formula is why we took Algebra in high school.
Many problems can be explained and solved through Algebra.
With algebra you don't need a formula becuase by using the rules of Algebra you can biuld your own formulas.
A complete equation can be a formula within a formula within a formula.
I presented part of an equation and invite any and all to particapate in the analysis of this mechanical device. for me this is one of the things Hot Rodding is all about.

Last edited by Cridder; 07-18-2012 at 06:51 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:56 PM
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You're gonna need some heavier math than just algebra, I'm afraid.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2012, 12:12 AM
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have your cake and eat it too

[QUOTE=ap72;1574873]What you need to have any credible comparison is a graph for each pump that looks similar to this:

http://www.dynafloweng.com/pics/gear.../g34curves.jpg

Notice, pump speed, pressure, flow, fluid, and fluid temperature are all included. This is how REAL hydraulic engineers start to compare pumps.

QUOTE]

I looked at this dynfloweng.com graph you provided and i noticed that the pump has almost perfect lineairity,

As i recall you said:

"The fact that you think the pumping volume is linear and that you would see anything close to 100% efficency shows me your WAY off. Also, you didn't mention any properties for the fluid your pumping, which will have a HUGE impact, even something as simple as switching from 5W-20 to 10W-30, hell even going from 120 to 220 with the exact same oil will have a HUGE impact."

First you say i'm way off in my calculation because i assume linearity and then you show me a graph that illistrates a pump with perfect linearity. would you say that that is a contradiction? please explain
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