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Old 04-23-2005, 05:56 PM
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BBC 454 build ?? (long)

I recently aquired a 454 out of a mid 80's truck. I'm planning on building this engine to replace the 307 in my nova. So far the plan is either 781/049 casting heads with with slight bowl work. Stock bottom end except for a set of forged pistons, and arp rod bolts. A compression ration of about 9:1. The new lunati "voodoo" asymmetrical camshaft. .256/.262 adv. duration, .213/.219 duration at .50, .515"/.530" gross lift and 112/108 LSA/ICL, a weind action plus intake, a 670 holley street avenger carb which i would like to use just becuase i already have it, and a set of hooker competition headers... it will be kept below 5800 rpm's

It will be connected to a th-350 with a ptc 2000 stall converter, red alto clutch packs, extra clutches in 1st and 2nd, a 700-r4 roller clutch assembly, upgraded sprag, a good hard shift kit, etc. etc. etc. (thing was overbuilt majorally cause my heavy right foot and lil small block were hard on transmisiions) all controlled by a hust pro-matic 2 shifter... and into a posi 3.42 gear 8.5" rear end with jegs traction action lift bars with mono leaf springs

any suggestions changes, or do i have a good streetable strong running combo sorted out here...?

the car is a weekend/night cruiser, and will embarass mustangs from stoplight to stoplight (hopefully)

depending on how greedy i get and how much power it puts down i will more than like run a 75-100 horsepower single stage plate system on top of it

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Old 04-23-2005, 06:34 PM
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Your setup looks really good. My only recommendation is a little more cam and stall. There is nothing wrong with running a 2500-3000 stall on the street especailly if it is a weekend car. I would recommend something like the comp XE274H (230 236 @.050 .552 .555 lift) and a 2500 stall. The cam will like to make power to right around 5800-6000 which is where you said you want it to make power. I really beleive that overall you would be much happier with this combo. Also, someday if you get some more money, I would recommend a 750-850 carb.

Adam
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Old 04-23-2005, 08:35 PM
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I like it. You could go more aggresive on the cam and convertor if ya want, or you could do it like you got listed and change it later if you want more. BTW, if you do go with a cam around 220-230* @.050, I would up the compression a little. Good luck
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Old 04-23-2005, 09:12 PM
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running on pump gas is a must!!! so i dont wanna go over 9-9.5:1,i dont want to get too aggressive with the cam and converter, i want it to have a near stock idle and very mundane street manners(ie. long interstate trips are not uncommon so a large stall is outta the question), and i do not want to go through the trouble of upgrading the valve springs, im putting the 307 emblems on the front fender and i dont want anyone to be able to tell there is more to it unless they pop the hood or they are lookin at my tailights, though it may just be a weekend car, it will be driven more during a one sat. night than it would if i daily drove it all week...... plus i think i can actually get this combo to hook up and go straight very well on street tires... TORQUE RULES!!!.....

im figuring this combo would but power to the ground very very easily and though it might not make power to 5800 with this cam shifting in or about that area should put me right back in the peack of my power and torque band ....

heck ive got a very, very, very mild 307 in the car now and run 14's.. and its just a stock bottom end wilth 305 heads, a performer eps, a mild summit cam, the street avenger carb, hei, and headers with 2 1/2 40 series flowmasters....its routed through the th-350 with a 2,000 stall and a 3.08 peg legg rear end with no traction aids... heck the car is known to run with, and out run most late model mustangs.... last time i ran it was against a 98 5sp gt with 3.73's, no cats, h-pipe, flows, chip and he only got me by 3/4 of a car length and that particular transmission in my nova was on its last legg
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Old 04-23-2005, 09:22 PM
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plus if i ever want to go farther with it, ill deffinitely invest in a set of aluminum heads, a solid roller, 850 holley, and a single plain intake....

id like to build it as just a mild big block, because if the need or want ever arises, a top end components swap can turn it into something very mean!!
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Old 04-24-2005, 07:26 AM
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Sounds like a great sleeper combo, my guess is that realistically it probably won't see the high side of 5500 but it won't need to either. The carb should be just about perfect for that combo but keep header primary tube diameter at 1-3/4" and that thing will pull down trees! In a Nova it's really going to like the 3.42's. I'd try it just the way it is before I started going to a bigger cam, more compression, bigger carb, converter etc. I've seen a lot of very similar cars over the years put the hurt on supposedly "fast" cars that had all the trick stuff. You have a very sound base to start with especially if you want to maintain a low profile, build it as is and then concentrate on dialing it in you may be pleasantly surprised. The only real problem I see is traction.

"Walk softly and carry a big stick."
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Old 04-24-2005, 08:01 AM
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Well, from what you described you want, you will like it the way it is, I know It sounds good.
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Old 04-24-2005, 08:40 AM
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you'll want to deck the block about .020" and mill the heads at least .030" to see 9:1 with forged flat tops. If torque is your thing, sounds like the right setup. Running nearly the same setup. put the first 1000 miles on the motor with a 650 dp holley. There's more power to be had on the top end with a bigger carb, but you are only losing out on about 20 hp at the peak. The gas milage wasn't half bad on the plus side with the 650.I am hoping to be able to afford one of these centrifugal superchargers eventually, as the low compression and forged pistons make the ideal situation for the bolt on.
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Old 04-24-2005, 09:35 AM
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If the xe274h is too big then I would think consider the Xe268H (224 230 @.050 515 520 lift). I ran that cam in a small block with vortec heads, and it hardly had any rumble to it at all. One thing about this cam is that it had amazing torque. If I got on it in first gear, it would boil the tires all through first and pretty much through second. I also ran a 1900 stall in a 700R4 and took the car on frequent 50 mile trips and got 17 miles per gallon. I also had a 3.90 rear gear. With how low the first gear is in a 700r4, you can afford a little more cam. I think if you use the cam that you are looking at, the motor will act more like a tow motor. I have a 396bbc in a 69 firebird that has a really small cam in it, it peels out good, but has NO top end, which isnt that fun. Here is a test to look at to compare a few cams. In this test, the 454 had rectangular port heads, but that just means that yours will have more torque, and this may sound weird, but I think yours will have more hp also. Also, this motor had 8.6:1 compression.

http://www.corvettefever.com/techart...ck/index1.html

Adam

Last edited by firestone; 04-24-2005 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 04-26-2005, 01:48 AM
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im building the engine exactly as i described in the first post, but with a set of roller rockers, msd ignition, and a welded up (always, advanced distributor).... im using a set of domed pistons in the engine to squeeze compression instead of milling the heads or block,... im going to run the cam i originally chose too, its an asymmetrical profile versus you standard symmetrical profile, and the flat torque curve it should produce in the low to mid rpm range

i want this thing to be a torque monster, i mean if i have learned anything is that high winding high horsepower engines can be outrun with torque and traction anyday of the week, most streetcars i know that run low, consistent times, have stump pulling engines, with good traction, decent horsepower, and pull amazing 60'ft times, and are hard to catch once they have the jump and are infront of you....

the main goal of this engine will be too, get it built and running, dial it in, set up the chassis,.... ive seen cars with cal tracks, a small dot slick, and 70/30 front shocks, and 50/50 rears hook up very, very, very well with engines built with a mind for torque, even more so than some four linked cars with high horsepower high dollar engines, i may be young, barely twenty, but i will always remember riding in my unles 80 camaro, with slapper bars, frame connecters, and a 400 sbc with 2.02's and a torque cam, ran through a th-350 with 3.73's and a posi running high 12's on street tires (when it would sedolmy hook up decently on them) and scaring the absolute hell out of a 6 year old me.....

a buddy of mine runs mud bogs and has a very similar engine built with a complete crane valve train, though, in his full size chevy on 44" boggers and one tons, and because of the enormous traction and low end power of this engine provided by the brute torque curve, 5.13 gears with lockers, cut boggers that absolutely dig, has had more succes (and broken more parts ie, transmissions, ring&pinions, axleshafts etc. ) than with a the dynoed 600 horse high winding mega dollar 427 bbc he had before....

another freind of mine owns an offroad shop and is building his blazer with 2 1/2 tons, the same big block combination as described above, the axles moved rear-ward and foreward for more wheel base, a th-400, dual transfer cases, and the yet to be released 47" super swamper irocs, and run the big trails, and that thing with the gearing it will have (a 125:1 crawl ratio) will be absolutely amazing as far as what it will climb up, over, and through with little to no effort or throttle....
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:55 AM
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From my BBC experience, 454's don't like high compression and pump gas. In your case 9:1 is a lot. I would run about 8.5 to 8.75 on the street with a mild cam. FYI, large diameter pistons need a bunch of timing (40+) to make power.

Forged pistons are noisy and don't live long on the street. A good set of cast pistons is all you need.

The weiand action plus is a piece of junk. I had a miss in my 454 for years and I could figure it out. Turned out to be the intake (weiand action plus intake). The runners are totally different lenghts and I feel the reversion from the short runners interfer with the flow of the long runners. Use the holley intake or performer.

I like using th400's behind 454's.

A 3.08 is a good gear for a mild 454 as long as it is a LSD. So, it would be a good idea to convert your diff to a LSD.

The world products BBC cast iron oval port street head would be a good choice for your project.

Good luck.
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Old 04-26-2005, 04:41 PM
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yeah im so sure that forged pistons have less of a fatigue life than cast pistons

and last time i checked weind was a branch of holley....

and my th-350 (which has been completely race built) isnt stronger than a th-400 thats basically stock... yeah right

did you even read the part about putting a posi unit with 3.42 gears in the rear end.... ????.... i think that last post was totally un-helpful, and basically babble
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Old 04-26-2005, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbypantera
i think that last post was totally un-helpful, and basically babble
Easy their slugger, he was just trying to be helpful. If you disagree with his opinion that's cool but let's keep it friendly eh? From your initial posts you seem to have a pretty good grasp of things but it never hurts to consider other viewpoints.

Personally I like cast pistons for low RPM torque motors. They are quieter, give better oil control because they can run tighter piston to wall clearances and can even stand up to a 100HP Nitrous setup if used properly. It hasn't been my experience that forged pistons don't last long on the street but there are a LOT of things I haven't experienced.

All he said about TH400s is that he liked them behind 454's. That's not a real exclusive club. He never said anything about your TH350. Personally I prefer a good TH350 or 200-4R over a TH400 or 700R4 but that doesn't mean the guys that don't are wrong or that I'm right.

The last time I checked Holley had purchased Weiand but Weiand manifolds were not the same as Holley manifolds. He's not the first person I've heard say they preferred other intakes over the Stealth (oops "Action Plus"). I've also heard people say the opposite, every application is different.

And it's easy to miss things in posts, or in some cases read things into them that aren't there or were meant in a totally different context. Your proposed motor would work well with a 3.08 too, so he missed that you already had a posi, it's not worth biting his head off for..........

We're all here for the same reason to share our interest in cars, we all get our feathers ruffled from time to time and we all have bad days. Been there and done it myself and I felt REALLY bad after I went off. Take it from me if you get PO'd at somebody's reply hammer away at the old keyboard, really let 'em have it and then hit "DELETE", go work on the car THEN post a rebuttal after you cool off if you still think it's necessary. I usually don't after I've had time to think about it.

Last edited by Hippie; 04-27-2005 at 06:16 AM.
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:13 PM
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This thread was interesting to me, as it touches on some of the same issues that I'm currently pondering. I just bought a Gen VI 454 (aka Vortec 7.4), which has it's pluses and minuses. Pluses are 4 bolt mains, good crank, good rods. Minuses are small non-adjustable rocker studs. I'm also looking at a relatively low RPM street build (going in a glass bodies 34 ford in front of a 700R4/ 9" Ford rear). I'm ditching the EFI, and planning on using a carb and manifold.

Anyone have any experience with these heads, which use SBC shaped Vortec chambers, but same intake port size as the early oval port heads (bigger than the early truck round ports)? I'm debating whether I should keep them for the chamber shape, or replace them with a set of early iron oval port heads. (By the way, I've read that Gen VI blocks, unlike Gen V blocks, will accept Mk IV heads.)

BTW, my current plan is to retain the stock hydraulic roller lifters. GM sells a couple of hydraulic roller cams for this engine at good prices.

Comments or suggestions welcomed!
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Old 04-27-2005, 08:54 AM
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I change my opinion, I think the Wieand Action Plus manifold will be a perfect match for you and your 454.
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