bearing wear - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 12:08 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Piedmont Italy
Posts: 207
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 8
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
bearing wear

While tearing down oil pump today i've took off some cap to see main bearings conditions and this is what i've found:
[IMG=http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4468/img0476d.jpg][/IMG]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

engine had run for about 2 h, just for the set up, non road, i've cleaned doing my best all tunnels, holes everithing in the engine blowing with compressed air, and solvent, engine was perfect at the assembly, coated all bearings with specific lube, checked all the clearances , they were fine...
As you can see crank looks like perfect, but wear pattern on the bearings are telling something wrong, misalignement?
i'm so frustrated.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 12:15 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 6,684
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 403 Times in 348 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepers creepers
While tearing down oil pump today i've took off some cap to see main bearings conditions and this is what i've found:
[IMG=http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4468/img0476d.jpg][/IMG]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

engine had run for about 2 h, just for the set up, non road, i've cleaned doing my best all tunnels, holes everithing in the engine blowing with compressed air, and solvent, engine was perfect at the assembly, coated all bearings with specific lube, checked all the clearances , they were fine...
As you can see crank looks like perfect, but wear pattern on the bearings are telling something wrong, misalignement?
i'm so frustrated.
Looks like a lot of very fine material circulated with the oil, I'd guess stone remains left on and in the cylinder walls from the honing operations.

Keep in mind that bearing shells don't fit perfectly round, there are high and low spots a few millionths of an inch in difference. You will see the high spots as shinny areas on the bearing. It doesn't take much more than a piece of lint under the shell to cause this.

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 12:47 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Piedmont Italy
Posts: 207
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 8
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thank you for the quick and professional response as usual Bogie.
Can the "fine material" be the Moly grease used on the bolts?
i've seen a lot of this in the oil pan, i did an oil change already but the fine particles are probably heavy so they tend to stay.
i'm afraid to see rod bearings now, don't know what to do, i've a new set of bearings on the shelf but i think that once changed the story will start again so it's probably useless.
Any advice?
Thank you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 01:17 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
The image that didn't show:



Looks wiped like from a momentary loss of oil pressure or from low pressure at start up. I would start by cleaning the caps, the block registers, bearing inserts and crankshaft. Then I would either mike them or at least use plastigage to see what the clearances look like.

Were the main saddles checked for round, or honed?

Carefully cut open the filter to see what it has picked up- this will likely show you what caused the grooving seen on some of the bearings.

Get a look at the back of the bearings to see if there looks to be anything caught between the bearing and cap or block.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 01:42 PM
BOBCRMAN@aol.com's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Holly, michigan
Posts: 8,081
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 22
Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts
You did all that prep to the block. Did you clean the crank, clean the oil passages with pipe cleaner, wash with detergent and blow dry.

Grit damage like this is usually caused by a dirty crank. I see it quite often from customers that ASSUME the crank is clean..Thats why standard/re-grind cranks come with a written disclaimer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 02:23 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
What Bob just pointed out makes me also wonder if the crank oil passages were cleaned out after the crank was turned, because the crank can look clean, yet not be. The shop shouldn't be held to cleaning it completely after machining- unless they're paid to do so (time is money after all).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 02:37 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Piedmont Italy
Posts: 207
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 8
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
thank you guys,
well i'm feeling guilty but i remember to have cleaned the crank pretty good, brush, solvent and compressed air several times but after all as you says it can be dirty anyway.
Block has been bored and honed, here in Italy is hard to find a decent machine shop and as "decent" i mean just to do their work and make sure all the tolerances are ok.
They probably haven't the tool to bore the maincaps and mine sure wasn't, block was in very good conditions, that's for sure but probably maincaps bores now are not perfectly round and this cause this kind of wear.
As i've said before, there's a complete bearing kit on the shelf i've brought for another engine so i can change them but my concern is to get them quicky at the same point as before.
Engine is already on so work on it is not so suitable and even the basic measurements could be difficult now.
How long bearings will last in this conditions in your opinion?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 02:49 PM
johnsongrass1's Avatar
Race it, Don't rice it!
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Columbia, Mo
Age: 37
Posts: 4,078
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Clevitte's website has a bearing failure guide that quite useful. Those bearing look OK enough to me. Mostly they look like the main bores aren't round. Most blocks aren't round and need at least a little attention.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 03:15 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepers creepers
How long bearings will last in this conditions in your opinion?
Were the cap bolts replaced w/studs? What do the rod bearings look like? This is important because if the rod bearings look normal, the possibility of the main bore being out of spec greatly increases, IMO.

Any chance you can have the main bores measured w/a dial bore gauge- or even carefully used snap gauge and a micrometer?

Was this the engine that had the mysterious oil pressure gauge fluctuation?

If the crank oil clearances, taper, out of round and straightness all fall within specs (taper and straightness seem to look OK), and the oil pressure is adaquate, AND the saddles are OK, the engine could have a normal life expectancy. But the cause for the wear should be determined. I would concentrate on the oil clearance, the out of round of both the crank main journals and the main bore.

I'd be less concerned w/the wear caused by grit than the apparent wiping that has happened. But obviously if the bearing wear were to continue at the rate it is now- w/2 hours of non loaded run time- there's the possibility it may not last long at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 03:21 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Piedmont Italy
Posts: 207
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 8
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
i didn't see the rod bearings yet, i hope they'll be better than these, main caps got new ARP bolts but not studs, yes, this is the engine with the mysterious oil pressure fluctuation we spoke about in the other thread," M55 oil pump done after 5000 rpm".

Last edited by jeepers creepers; 02-24-2011 at 03:29 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 07:23 PM
johnsongrass1's Avatar
Race it, Don't rice it!
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Columbia, Mo
Age: 37
Posts: 4,078
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
The studs will pull the caps a little outa round for two main reasons. The first being the torque values change slightly as the threads on the stud are little better then then the stock bolt. The better fastener usually gets a little more load even though the torque value may be the same. The second, the stud will pull the block slightly different than a bolt. Sometimes its enough you can get away with it and sometimes it's not. It always best to error on the side of caution.

You need to get the pump issue fixed. It doesn't look like you have hurt the bearings with lack of oil yet but it's never good.

Is your block had the main bored or honed? Was the crank installed new or was it checked for round journals?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 11:50 PM
4 Jaw Chuck's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Age: 46
Posts: 4,900
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 72 Times in 60 Posts
Looks 100% normal to me...no issues...what you are seeing is normal run in wear. Run it as is, that thin coating gets scuffed as soon as the engine is started and any number of small particles can cause the minor scuffing you are seeing. As long as your not seeing copper backing plating your good to go.

Here's a sample of what it will look like after 150 000 miles with regular oil changes.

__________________
Outlawed tunes from outlawed pipes
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2011, 09:50 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Piedmont Italy
Posts: 207
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 8
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
thank you so much for all the infos and picture as well.

I've brazed the pick up at the oil pump cover ( that was a bit low...) and mounted the maincaps with the old bearings, so now we'll see what will happen down the road.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2011, 10:51 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: surrey bc canada
Age: 74
Posts: 642
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
marks on bearings

Iagree wiyh 4jaw,bearing shells have a thin lead tin overlay to acomedate some imperfectionand debree.fines ar imposible for the average builder to completly eliminat.you ar fine inst. new filter and oil and use it cliff
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2011, 09:04 PM
Smarter than i look
 
Last wiki edit: Upgrading to HEI
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario Canada
Age: 36
Posts: 29
Wiki Edits: 2

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
There is nothing to worry about there. The bearing has a micro coat of the grey color you see for break-in. That coating is not presicion applied, more of a spray on/dip deal, and it will have high and low spots that the actual machined bearing surface does not, hence the odd pattern you see.
And the scuff's you think you see are actually the machined surface of the bearing, not a wear issue.
Take a brand new bearing out of the box, and LIGHTLY with fine scotch bright, gently scuff the grey coating and you will see a shiny bearing surface under there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bearing Wear Pics - what story do they tell? Argess Engine 20 10-15-2010 12:35 PM
Rod Bearing Wear Tubbed357 Engine 18 03-22-2010 07:50 PM
Thrust Bearing Wear 454impala69 Engine 14 07-04-2006 10:20 AM
Cam bearing wear question Mad Maggot Engine 3 12-02-2005 01:15 PM
tiny little fish-scale-like flakes of bearing on bearing/journal bullheimer Engine 2 04-16-2004 01:12 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.