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Old 05-16-2013, 01:29 PM
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Bellhousing dillemma...

I recently switched from a quartermaster 7.25 clutch set up which had a rear mount starter and bellhousing, to a standard chevy 10.5" clutch and 168 tooth flywheel set up. I never checked the starter fitment before I put the motor in and now I realize my starter will not fit as a block mount due to my "dry sump" oil pan design.

So, does anyone know if anyone makes a rear mount starter bellhousing set up designed for use with a standard sized flywheel? All of the ones I see are for the 7.25" clutch set up. Now I have a real dillemma as to pull this motor and put my other motor in the car all because of a starter...Surely there must be some solution..

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Old 05-16-2013, 04:16 PM
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Post a pic of the starter area. Most 168t flywheels are gonna use an 11 3/4" clutch, the 10 1/2" clutch is used on 153t flywheels. Although the smaller clutch may fit the larger 'wheel...
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:36 PM
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You will need a block mounted starter.
Post a pic or part number of the oil pan.
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:29 PM
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I just ordered a mini starter that will work on either flywheel. The oil pan protrudes a bit and blocks the path of the bolt on the offset style starter. Also the larger starter will not clear the AN fittings coming out of my oil pan. I'll try and post pics later,but I'm hoping the mini starter does the trick..
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmsport View Post
You will need a block mounted starter.
Post a pic or part number of the oil pan.
There is no part # it is a custom made oil pan for the dry sump system.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:45 PM
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can you use a bell hosing mount starter?

why did you use a 10.5 inch clutch instead of 11 inch?
A 600 HP engine with a 10.5 inch clutch and 3.0 gear is likely to have durability issues
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
can you use a bell hosing mount starter?

why did you use a 10.5 inch clutch instead of 11 inch?
A 600 HP engine with a 10.5 inch clutch and 3.0 gear is likely to have durability issues
Well actually, Im back to square one..I ordered a mini starter and no matter what I did or how I clocked it , no good. The oil pan is a weird design and will need to be modified to use a block mount starter. The car originally came with a bell housing mounted starter that used the ring on the clutch. But everything was set up for a race style clutch and I wanted something totally more streetable, like a sprung hub single plate clutch. I could not find a company that made that style set up for anything over 7.25 " clutches..

So I just pulled the motor and am putting in my 355 small block which makes about 390-420 hp. It has a ton of sentimental value, it is the last motor my father ever built.So it will be at home in his favorite car for a while till I decide how I really want to set this car up. Im looking down the road at an LS engine and trans. I will take some pictures of the oil pan tomorrow since it is out of the car so you can see my dilemma.

Also I plan on putting in 383 gears in the near future.
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:04 AM
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A base model dry sump pan is really simple deal and cheap, you could just change the pan which would allow the use of any block mounted starter.




Can the engine be converted back to a wet sump?
Some rear caps have no provision for a pump and sometimes the passages around the filter are deleted if putting the oil in the center front galley.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmsport View Post
A base model dry sump pan is really simple deal and cheap, you could just change the pan which would allow the use of any block mounted starter.
My pan has 3 ports for the oil on it and the bolts to hold the pan on are in a weird position...



Quote:
Can the engine be converted back to a wet sump?
Some rear caps have no provision for a pump and sometimes the passages around the filter are deleted if putting the oil in the center front galley.
This I dont know, I do know the engine was built as a dedicated race engine. The engine build receipt does have mention about blocking oil ports..
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:38 PM
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Well here are some pictures of the oil pan. I dont know what brand it is but it has provision for 3 scavenge ports. I have a Stock Car Products 4 stage dry sump pump.


IMG_20130518_225659_462 by JerseyJules313, on Flickr


Notice how the oil pan is actually wider than a normal oil pan and the bolts are actually INSIDE the oil pan accessible via the 6 plugs on the bottom of the pan, which is possibly the worst design I have ever seen on any product...You actually can drop the bolts into the engine while installing this silly oil pan..I dont know who made it or if it was a custom nightmare, but I cant imagine it being largely successful.


IMG_20130518_225708_895 by JerseyJules313, on Flickr


IMG_20130518_225725_428 by JerseyJules313, on Flickr

These 2 above photos take notice of where I am pointing. The oil pan actually protrudes out past the starter mounting hole if using an offset starter. That 1/2 protrusion is what is preventing me from installing a starter. Also look at where the last 90 degree AN fitting is..


IMG_20130518_225758_937 by JerseyJules313, on Flickr

These access ports are where you install the nut to a pre installed stud in the block, to hold the oil pan down. Thats right, you put studs in the block, then install the oil pan, then put a socket holding the nut into your oil pan and attempt to thread it on and tighten it down...Insane design if you as me, you're risking dropping a friggin nut or tool into you bottom end..


IMG_20130518_230809_181 by JerseyJules313, on Flickr

This is the inside of the oil pan.


IMG_20130518_230816_427 by JerseyJules313, on Flickr

Here you can see the 6 installed studs in the block used for securing the oil pan.


IMG_20130518_230822_250 by JerseyJules313, on Flickr

This is the location of the stock oil pump.


IMG_20130518_230827_299 by JerseyJules313, on Flickr

Here is another reason why I would not utilize this oil pan. It requires you to machine down a significant amount of material the oil filter relocation adaptor, just so you can fit the damn oil pan..This design is insanely stupid..I can see if this a custom made oil pan, how the dude that made it thought these were all good ideas when he designed it..Also by the look of the amount of silicone used to seal the pan, it must have leaked like a siv...Bad bad bad design..


IMG_20130518_233856_590 by JerseyJules313, on Flickr

Here is my oil pump, it has 3 scavenge ports so I need an oil pan that has provisions for 3.

Now do you see the nonsense Im dealing with..
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:07 AM
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At first glance it looks like your engine could easily be converted back to a standard wet sump setup (if you care to go that way), then sell all the dry-sump stuff and get rid of the additional leak points too. Pull the doodad off the filter pad and see what's under it. The Allen-head plug in the rear main cap can be removed, do that and check that the passage to the filter area is clear.

Russ
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S10xGN View Post
At first glance it looks like your engine could easily be converted back to a standard wet sump setup (if you care to go that way), then sell all the dry-sump stuff and get rid of the additional leak points too. Pull the doodad off the filter pad and see what's under it. The Allen-head plug in the rear main cap can be removed, do that and check that the passage to the filter area is clear.

Russ
I think Im going to try and keep the dry sump set up if at all possible, providing the set up is not detrimental to driving it on the street. To remove the system and the plumbing would be a darn shame. I did find a reasonably priced oil pan from Pro Cam that will work with my set up providing I can use a block mount mini starter.
PRO/CAM Racing Engine Components 9132 : Pro/Cam Budget Dry Sump Oil Pan - SB Chevy

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Old 05-19-2013, 12:31 PM
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That pan/pump is normal oval track setup, I have used pans like that many times. You can plug off one of the scavenge stages if a two port pan is more affordable. Or, you can make the pump into a two stage scavenge but you have to take the pump apart and buy new bolts and shaft.With any dry sump engine I run, I prime the system before the first start every day. If you have the tank mounted such that it will gravity feed the pressure stage you might avoid that procedure.

I think you could convert it back to a wet sump without much trouble.
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by lmsport View Post
That pan/pump is normal oval track setup, I have used pans like that many times. You can plug off one of the scavenge stages if a two port pan is more affordable. Or, you can make the pump into a two stage scavenge but you have to take the pump apart and buy new bolts and shaft.With any dry sump engine I run, I prime the system before the first start every day. If you have the tank mounted such that it will gravity feed the pressure stage you might avoid that procedure.

I think you could convert it back to a wet sump without much trouble.

Well what would be the difference in an oval track set up and what I had to begin with? I assume that mine has a scavenge tube run over to the drivers side of the pan? The difference in a few $$ is not an issue when selecting from 3 scavenges or 2 scavenges. I would prefer to keep it a dry sump system and just swap out the oil pan, Im not ripping out an entire oil system over the fitment of a starter, if I can find a pan that works with a mini starter.

And the tank is locate at a higher point than the pump and will gravity feed its entire contents on my garage floor if I remove the feed line to the pump, so priming is not an issue.
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:13 PM
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Here is another oil pan I have found that is for road racing, but it almost looks like clearance will be an issue also. It does say that a use of a mini starter is required. Im going to contact them tomorrow and get clarification.
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