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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2012, 08:35 AM
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if you guys hadn't noticed, I originally made that post almost a year ago, in June And guess what....I haven't done a damn thing to that quarter panel in this entire time. Been putting it off so the fact that this got bumped and is active again is a good thing.

I had ground down the welds to remove most of the proud weld, so they are about as flush as I think they safely can be at this point, and I'd done some stretching where I could with on-dolly hammering, then trying to planish it out with my slapper.

Brian is on the mark though in saying that I can't stretch the stuff over the wheelhouse--because I can't. I've borrowed dollies on a stick from a body shop, tried multiple contortions, I can't hold a dolly hard enough against the back of the weld.

Pugsy--when you're talking about the HAZ as the area of metal directly affected by the heat, is this the 'burn area' directly around the weld, or more generally, the extent to how far the rippling travels down the quarter as a result of the shrink?

I have a crazy idea--only an idea--to run by all...what if I were to reopen the most affected parts of the seam, slide in my slapper as a dolly so I can stretch the metal, then weld back together with a wider gap between the panels so it doesn't buckle and pucker like it did?

This seam here is just embarassing; I have no idea how I was able to do this. The only patch repairs I ever make on this car are only buttwelds and they always come out great.

Here's my B pillar skin patch I did, there was no warpage whatsoever. I'm sharing this just so y'all don't think I'm hopeless, with all this bad luck I've been having lately.

http://joshlizer.blogspot.com/2011/0...y-mustang.html

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2012, 08:55 AM
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I was going to wait until Pugsy responded but I have no patience. He can correct me if I am wrong. The HAZ is just that, the area that was affected by the heat. This is NOT the whole warp, that warp is there BECAUSE OF the area that was effected by the heat shrinking.

My understanding the larger gap you have, the MORE it will shrink.

Brian
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2012, 08:57 AM
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First, let me apologize for my earlier post. I made it without backing up and reading the entire post. I did not realize you were in trouble and chose a very poor time to try and be funny. I sincerely apologize.

Brian is correct about spacing the welds and Pugsy's metal work on his panel is excellent. Both know what they are talking about.

I do have a couple of thoughts though. Looking at the discoloration of the metal beside your weld I see extends far enough out to indicate quite a bit of heat. if you cut the quarter back off above the weld it would be easy to straighten the remaining lip on the car. At that point you would have access to the replacement panel and could hopefully straighten it or ,God forbid, install another new quarter. I believe if you place your spot welds properly you can do a much better job of controlling the shrinkage. Without the ability to get behind this panel I just don't see you getting it where you want it to be.

John L
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:03 AM
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I do disagree with Brian only about the gap. I personally like a little gap. maybe a 1/16 of an inch. I can bridge the gap with a much smaller, cooler weld and better control the heat. This comes from my personal style and 25 years of becoming set in my ways. That does not mean I don' think others methods will work.

John L
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:07 AM
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haha Jesus John, this isn't church! No room for prudes here...humor is good anytime, especially these times. I appreciate humor and am a very sarcastic person No offense was taken whatsoever!

I think you are right about too much heat. I didn't have the heat settings up any higher on my welder than I ever do, but I remember driving home those spot welds really good to make sure I had good penetration. I did sit there with the trigger pulled a little longer than I usually do, which is prob why I don't have this problem on my other welds.

Here's the history on this quarter...it was beat to HELL. I bought a skin. Skin was **** so I threw it out. Bought a full quarter and cut it down to a skin. That's a $400 quarter right there as a result. The rest of my work on it is great. I'd reeeaally like to not have to replace it if I don't have to.

Here is the original work when I did that quarter...

http://www.joshlizer.blogspot.com/20...rter-skin.html
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:08 AM
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I do know that when welding something like that there really is no reason for that much warpage, if you weld it like I do with little, hot spot welds so it welds FAST there is very little heat going out to a large HAZ.

I am NOT saying that Pugsy is wrong (that would be pretty damn stupid of me) being he is one of those guys I admire and is working with the metal like a master of days gone by,a "tin man" if you will.

What I do is NOT that kinda work, but when using a MIG welder with my limited skills in metal shaping, welding as I do with small hot welds and skipping around allowing it to cool COMPLETELY before welding again you get a lot less warpage. I am not kidding, that seam would take me all day long to weld. I would literally take all day long, that is how much time I leave between welds on something like that.

It may not be the BEST way, but I like to call something like that the "Bestest" way.

The "Tin man" will weld it, then plannish it into the shape he wants. THAT is the right way to do it, I am talking more a middle of the road "bestest" way to do it. Just tossing it out there at this point for discussion and Pugsy, I do want to hear what you think about this method.

Brian
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John long
I do disagree with Brian only about the gap. I personally like a little gap. maybe a 1/16 of an inch. I can bridge the gap with a much smaller, cooler weld and better control the heat. This comes from my personal style and 25 years of becoming set in my ways. That does not mean I don' think others methods will work.

John L
About the gap (I'm sure Brian probably doesn't realize this) I had use butt welding clamps to provide my gap so there was about a 1/16" space (or whatever is considered ideal). HOWEVER, where those huge swells are in the panel, for whatever reason the old metal and the new metal were actually touching; there wasn't much of a gap at all. I went ahead and scorched it anyways. That might change Brian's mind after he knows that.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
I am not kidding, that seam would take me all day long to weld. I would literally take all day long, that is how much time I leave between welds on something like that.


Brian
It literally took me about a week to complete all those welds. I'd only a add a few a day, spaced across the entire panel. Welds were let to cool naturally and cool to the touch until I made a new weld adjacent to a previous weld. After I made a run I'd set the gun down and go back 5 minutes later or so. I was actually working on something else while doing these welds; I'd just periodically come back and put some new welds on then get back to whatever I was doing. This is why I am so perplexed. I thought I was doing this by the book.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizer
I think you are right about too much heat. I didn't have the heat settings up any higher on my welder than I ever do, but I remember driving home those spot welds really good to make sure I had good penetration. I did sit there with the trigger pulled a little longer than I usually do, which is prob why I don't have this problem on my other welds.
And this is what I was talking about. This is me, and what I have learned to do, I don't know if it goes against the norm and what other opinions are, I just know I have made it work pretty good for me.

The fact is, you WANT the weld hot. Set up a little test, turn that welder WIDE OPEN, as hot as it will go. I have a 205 amp 220 volt welder and I can do this, this is where I weld, HOT. I am not saying this quarter would be welded like this, I would have the "heat" (the voltage) turned down to just above the middle of the settings like 6.5 (it goes 1-10) with the wire speed (the amperage) set about the same. This is much higher than the recommendations on the welder. But I am not laying a "bead", that would be different. Welding a bead, you need lower heat because you would blow a hole with all that heat. But for my little bzzzzz quarter inch welds, it is perfect.

But back to what I started to say, turn that welder up all the way and weld a test panel seam. With a little practice you will be able to lay a little quarter inch bead without blowing a hole. With it set this hot, and welding a very short little weld FAST, you are creating a much smaller HAZ. This is at least how I have found to work with the MIG.

I am not kidding, with this method I can touch the metal after welding very close to the weld and there is very little heat. Letting this little heat cool down completely before moving to the next weld, you keep the heat down and less warpage.

Again, I can't stress enough, this is "bodyman" stuff, not "Tin man" stuff so we are talking on two different plains, Pugsy and I.

What he is saying is how I WANT to learn to do things, that is the right way, that is the way of the metal masters. He is talking the BEST way. I am talking the "bestest" way in my opinion and with my limited skills.

Brian
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
I do know that when welding something like that there really is no reason for that much warpage, if you weld it like I do with little, hot spot welds so it welds FAST there is very little heat going out to a large HAZ.

I am NOT saying that Pugsy is wrong (that would be pretty damn stupid of me) being he is one of those guys I admire and is working with the metal like a master of days gone by,a "tin man" if you will.

What I do is NOT that kinda work, but when using a MIG welder with my limited skills in metal shaping, welding as I do with small hot welds and skipping around allowing it to cool COMPLETELY before welding again you get a lot less warpage. I am not kidding, that seam would take me all day long to weld. I would literally take all day long, that is how much time I leave between welds on something like that.

It may not be the BEST way, but I like to call something like that the "Bestest" way.

The "Tin man" will weld it, then plannish it into the shape he wants. THAT is the right way to do it, I am talking more a middle of the road "bestest" way to do it. Just tossing it out there at this point for discussion and Pugsy, I do want to hear what you think about this method.

Brian

The least amount of heat with proper penetration is always the best way.
The less heat, less shrinkage. Ask your wife, she will agree, shrinkage is bad.

On my hood panel, the intent was to show that I welded it wrong on purpose. I wanted to learn more about stretching and shrinking and getting it back into shape. I'm a sucker for punishment but would not attempt this where its difficult to reach the back.

I wouldn't cut and reweld. If the weld is solid, I would think hard about how to get in there. If I had to, I would weld a long tube to my dolly to get it just right. I understand there are a variety of spoons available for such a purpose as well.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:22 AM
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Agree Brian. The problem Josh has is there is no way for him to get behind the panel to properly planish it and his welds were really hot. Unlike the panel Pugsy is demonstrating where he has access to properly metal work the panel. You are correct also about spot welds with as little heat as possible.

Forgive me for jumping in here. Josh is already getting good advise from knowledgeable people. Mostly I felt I owed him an apology which he graciously accepted.

John L
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:26 AM
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Forgot to mention, just the area in the HAZ has been affected. Do not touch the metal beyond an inch to inch and a half either side of the weld. I know it is frustrating but if you want to do it right, its got to be done. You can also work it the best you can get it and allow for filler. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a skim coat of filler. I'll be using it on my project for sure.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:26 AM
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Pugsy, read the post I made explaining my position on the hot welds that I do. Honestly, I have had great success with this. Because I don't have to hold it there for a longer time to GET penetration with a lower heat it creates LESS heat in the area. A short hot weld then let it cool. When I start hitting other welds as the welds get closer and closer together and overlap the weld is hot enough to penetrate the next weld which of course is thicker than the surrounding sheetmetal. It is thus, "less" heat because the weld is made so much faster.

Again, I understand what you are saying but this really seems to work.

Brian
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Pugsy, read the post I made explaining my position on the hot welds that I do. Honestly, I have had great success with this. Because I don't have to hold it there for a longer time to GET penetration with a lower heat it creates LESS heat in the area. A short hot weld then let it cool. When I start hitting other welds as the welds get closer and closer together and overlap the weld is hot enough to penetrate the next weld which of course is thicker than the surrounding sheetmetal. It is thus, "less" heat because the weld is made so much faster.

Again, I understand what you are saying but this really seems to work.

Brian
I never disagreed with you. A fast hot tack is the same as a drawn out weld at a cooler setting.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:33 AM
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Ok, you know I started doing that fast hot weld years ago and never looked back. I did it because I was warping things, maybe if I had just learned the right way it would have been better.

Thanks.

Brian
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