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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2004, 02:07 PM
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Rust Inhibitor

Here's a formula for a rust inhibitor I found in an old chemical formulary book. I don't know if it works or not, or how well it works, but for what it is worth, here goes:

Rust Inhibitor for Steel (apply prior to painting)

Phosphoric Acid 12 gal.
Cellosolve (?) 6 gal.
Water 160 gal.
Chromium Sulfate 25 lbs.
Areskap (wetting
agent) 1.5 gal.

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Old 06-13-2004, 09:20 PM
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no arizona rust believe it. i lived in the state for 19 years and can say first hand its basically a rust free state.spend a day or to when its 124 degrees and that is just the air temp.thats phoenix az.record unless its beat it since i left.if you see a car full of holes in that state its not rust its from bullet holes some misguided individual put in it.also i'am trying to put together a 57 willys pickup and rust is a major problem here on the oregon coast.i've studied websites trying to find out what they use in industrial settings some of the products mentioned are being used.hope this helps
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Old 06-14-2004, 08:38 AM
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Chroming...???

I don't use "hetrosexually friendly" chrome platers, I use "the other" kind of chrome plating - because it is nice and thick, and it goes on long and deep - it's also makes for a rather gay atmosphere and it's friendly to the eye, also thin chrome plating looks cheap.

An interesting thing on the history of rusting rods.

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/dec102003/1546.pdf

http://www.groupsrv.com/science/viewtopic.php?t=39964

The best way to rust proof an automobile is to dip the entire stripped shell into dilute hydrochloric acid, rinse, hot dip in a moltern zink bath, then apply 20 coats of epoxy enamel and dip the finished artical into warm moltern tar, allow to soak for 2 hours, with draw, allow to cool, dip - soak - withdraw etc., untill you build up a coat of bitumen at least 2" - 50mm thick, store in a cold dry nitrogen atmosphere and your car will be rust resistant for at least 60,000 years.
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Old 06-14-2004, 12:54 PM
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Another Zero Rust fan

Quote:
Originally posted by Huskerboy2
I use a product called zero rust. It's about $40 a gallon. I use it like a rust inhibiting primer on frames, inside panels, etc. You can get the details at www.zerorust.com. To buy it, I recommend www.zero-rust.com. They seem to have the best prices that I have found.
Just wanted to chime in that I am really happy with Zero Rust as well. It's reasonably priced, seems pretty durable from what I can see and does not contain isocyanides like some other products do. That means you can spray it in a home shop without special equipment.

I've dragged heavy equipment across floorboards that I've painted with ZR and even beat on them with a hammer but I haven't been able to break through Zero Rust yet.

One word of warning. You have to topcoat many of the popular rust paints, including ZR, if it's going to be exposed to UV. I checked ZR's web site last week before doing some topcoating on the weekend and there was little in the way of info on compatible types of paint (other than using their product of course). I used a rattle can over top of the ZR and noticed a bit of wrinkling.

BTW - drop ZR an email and they'll put a local distributor in touch with you.
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Old 06-15-2004, 04:29 AM
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Here in the UK where we have crappy wet weather all year round basically, I have found that the best solution to rust is to get a grinder/ sander, remove the rust to bear metal. then paint with a normal auto primer, then coat with stonechip, liquid rubber compound, then finish off with a good coating of waxoil, a semi soild waxy oil based material, which never fully hardens, leaving a flexible layer that will not crack and rust.

the other point is like one other guy said, stop water collecting in the vehicle and fill any seams, inside doors etc with waxoil.
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Old 06-15-2004, 08:58 AM
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As an owner of a couple of MGB's i was introduced to Waxoyl a number of years ago. It's basically floor wax (paste type) dissolved in 'mineral spirits' as the Brits would say. You can make your own with beeswax a cheese grater (to grind up the wax) and a few gallons of solvent. Using gas (petrol) is prob not a good idea (fire hazzard). Go to a paint shop and get mineral spirit or something with a high flash point to avoid incinerating your project. Grate up the wax - immerse it and stir occasionally. Suitably dissolved, it can be sprayed with most diy rustproofing kits (sold by Whitney and others). It's fairly clear, so doesn't stain rugs etc much. Place smells like a freshly waxed floor for a few weeks, but appears to retard rusting. I usually treat door with phosphoric acid, paint with rust inhibitive paint (high fish oil content) and then use Waxoyl. It is available from some MG and UK auto parts sellers in the USA too.. somewhat pricy though. Re-waxoy evere 2 yrs or so just for luck. Cheers..

TH
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Old 06-17-2004, 01:46 AM
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Waxoyl is very impressive stuff, but make sure to clean the existing rust off first.


(Taken from http://www.geocities.com/wallaces_21/waxoyl.html)

Here is a recipe for home made "Waxoyl". It's an old fashioned rust treatment / undercoating:

2 1/2 quarts turpentine
12 oz. beeswax / candle wax
1 quart light machine oil

With a cheese shredder, cut the wax into the turpentine, stir until the wax has dissolved, (takes a long time; you can use very low heat (a warm room) to aid but be careful) and thin with the machine oil to a brushable / sprayable consistency. Apply liberally. You can use a hand spray bottle to get into closed-off sections if you have a small access hole.


Please be sensible when you make this stuff; don't go breathing the fumes or applying heat and burning down your house. If you have any doubts about it, err on the side of caution and just buy a commercially available product.
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Old 07-25-2004, 12:10 PM
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Get the rust off first! Then I use POR-15 to stop it from rusting anymore. But rust will turn into rot! So, I'd take care of it as soon as you can!
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Old 08-26-2004, 01:36 PM
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Re: rust converters

Quote:
Originally posted by willys57pu
go to www.tinmantech.com.---picklex 20 works great it kills rust in its tracks.$100 a gallon.the tinman sells a product that does the same thing for $28.00 a gallon. theres also rust mort but i don't know much about it.zero rust has a good reputation.por 15 i've heard peels off and if rust is still active underneath things could rot out before you know theres a problem.kill the rust don't cover it up a few years from now you will be glad you did




Anybody else use tin man's rust remover?????
If so , what did you use it on? Did it last?
Thanks
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Old 09-02-2004, 11:10 AM
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For rust nutrilization, i've had good lluck with phosphoric acid - the same stuff that is in carbonated beverages in a dilute form. Dupont metal prep contains it, but it's avalible from chemical supply companies in concentrated form much cheaper. In concentrate (reagent) form it's clear and about the consistency of glycerin. It does not appear to be very reactive on the skin. I've spilled the concentrated stuff on my hand several times, altho i certainly don't recommend getting it on bare skin. Diluted about 5:1 to 20:1 seems to work ok (depending on the severity of the rust). You have to dilute it some for best reactivity with the rust. When it stops fizzing, you've got nearly all the rust neutralized. I've had my plastic container of it (about 3.5 gallons) for 5 or 6 years now, and it's still over half full. It will pit concrete, particularly in concentrate form - so watch out for your garage floor. Happy derusting!.
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Old 09-02-2004, 11:19 PM
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Some useful info...

Slightly edited for size:


United States Patent


4,808,244

Pedrazzini

Compositions for protecting steel surfaces against atmospheric oxidation

Abstract

Compositions for protecting steel surfaces against atmosferic oxidation comprising the quercitine derivative of monogallerylellogic acid, phosphoric acid, monoacid Zn phosphate, Zn nitrate, ascorbic acid, a water-miscible organic solvent ed water, said water-miscible organic solvent consisting of isopropyl glucol and ethoxypropanol. Said compositions are applied directly to the oxidized, treated or non-treated, steel surfaces.






Claims

I claim:

1. Compositions for protecting steel surfaces against atmospheric oxidation, consisting essentially of the quercetin derivatives of monogalloyllellagic acid, contained in a quantity of between 15 and 30% by weight, phosphoric acid contained in a quantity of between 2 and 3.2% by weight, monoacid Zn phosphate contained in a quantity of between 1.1 and 2% by weight, Zn nitrate contained in a quantity of between 7 and 12% by weight, ascorbic acid contained in a quantity of between 0.05 and 0.5% by weight, an organic solvent mixture consisting of isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol and ethoxypropanol, contained in a quantity of between 18% and 32% by weight, and water.

2. Compositions as claimed in claim 1, characterised in that the isopropyl alcohol is present in a quantity of between 5 and 15% by weight, the propylene glycol is present in a quantity of between 5 and 15% by weight, and the ethoxypropanol is present in a quantity of between 2 and 8% by weight of the composition.

Description


This invention relates to new compositions for protecting steel surfaces against atmospheric oxidation.

The invention also relates to steel objects having a protective layer formed from a said composition as an external layer or as an intermediate layer below the paint, and to the process for protecting steel from atmospheric corrosion by applying a layer of said composition.

Various known processes are currently used for protecting steel surfaces from atmospheric corrosion and, in the case of painted metal surfaces, for preventing oxidation of the metal surface causing the separation and rapid flaking of the overlying paint layer.

The process most widely used and which has given best results in this field up to the present time is undoubtedly the phosphating process. This process consists essentially of treating steel surfaces, whether oxidised or not, with aqueous solutions containing phosphoric acid. The phosphoric acid attacks the iron to form Fe phosphates. Whereas primary iron phosphate is soluble and secondary iron phosphate is slightly soluble, tertiary iron phosphate is totally insoluble. The main purpose of phosphating is therefore to form a surface layer of insoluble tertiary iron phosphate, which protects the underlying metal from any further attack by atmospheric agents.

In practice, during reaction by the phosphating solution, the pH rises because of the reduction in the concentration of hydrogen ions in the boundary layer, and consequently the insoluble tertiary phosphates precipitate.

The phosphate layer formed in the reaction between the phosphating solution and the steel closely adheres to the treated surface, and is characterised by strong resistance to electronic conduction so that it protects the underlying metal from further oxidation processes and prevents incoherence and flaking of pre-existing corrosion products.

The phosphating solutions utilised are rather complicated in that in addition to phosphoric acid and possibly phosphates, they comprise surface-active agents, accelerators, inhibitors of acid attack against zerovalent metal, solvents, antioxidants etc. Said phosphating solutions can be applied to any type of object.

The critical aspect of the phosphating process is the concentration of the phosphoric acid in the phosphating solution. In this respect, if the phosphoric acid is not completely consumed by its reaction with the oxides present on the treated surface and by the surface reaction with the iron, it produces, even if present in small concentrations, a strongly acid reaction against the subsequently applied layers such as oil, wax or paint, and consequently can result in negative reactions in these layers and in the finishing layer which alter and disintegrate them.

As it is very difficult to exactly calculate the quantity of phosphoric acid required, and as an acid deficiency leads to an unsatisfactory phosphated layer, an acid excess is generally used and the phosphated object is then washed with abundant water before applying the finishing layers.

This procedure is however not free from drawbacks in that the protective layer of tertiary iron phosphates is very thin, and does not properly withstand the water washing action, to give rise to the formation of new incoherent oxide by hydrolysis.

To obviate the drawbacks and limitations of phosphating, steel surface treatments have been in force for some years using formulations based on tannic acid derivatives of very high molecular weight which instead of eliminating the rust existing on these steel surfaces, form a continuous covering film over the rust.

This film consists of the product of the reaction between the tannic acids and the iron, and is in the form of a chelate of variable composition bonded to the support.

The drawbacks of this type of surface protection derive mainly from the fact that if an iron oxide layer is present on the steel surface it remains incorporated between the support and the protective layer without being eliminated, and this can lead to separation of the chelate layer by virtue mainly of its different coefficient of anisotropic expansion with respect to the support and the protective layer.

Moreover, under cover of the organic coating, the interchange reaction Fe.sup.++ .revreaction.Fe.sup.+++ in the underlying layer of uneliminated Fe oxides continues, with consequent variation in the composition of the oxide layer. This results overall in system instability, creating stresses which affect the organic chelate layer and produce discontinuity.

Difficulties are also encountered in this process because of the pH of the applied formulations based on tannic acid, this pH often being insufficiently low to produce a significant initial rate of reaction.

In accordance with the present invention we have now found a new composition for protecting oxidised, treated or non-treated surfaces which has none of the drawbacks of compositions of the known art, and moreover ensures a higher degree of protection, is very stable during storage and is absolutely free of toxic components.

The process for protecting steel surfaces according to the present invention is characterised by the use of mixed inorganic/organic compositions in which each component performs a specific function and is present in a quantity which is critical for system equilibrium. If the components are used outside the critical limits or if unscheduled components are added, the system becomes blocked and loses is functionality.

The compositions according to the invention are characterised by comprising:

the quercetin derivative of monogalloylellagic acid

phosphoric acid

monoacid Zn phosphate

Zn nitrate

ascorbic acid

a water-miscible organic solvent consisting of isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol and ethoxypropanol water.

The possibility of forming such a mixed system for protecting steel surfaces was unpredictable beforehand because as the organic component is an ester, it is sensitive to the hydrolysing action of phosphoric acid.

In practice, the hydrolysing and thus deactivating action of the phosphoric acid occurs only if the system deviates from the limits defined for its equilibrium.

Furthermore, in said composition the phosphating components as described hereinafter are present in proportions which are ineffective for the phosphating process, and also the organic component is absolutely ineffective if used alone, because of its low molecular weight. It was therefore in no way predictable that said composition could provide an anticorrosive action far superior to that obtainable by phosphating or by known tannin treatment.

The new compositions according to the invention act both by attacking any iron oxides present on the steel surface, and by forming a protective surface layer of organometallic chelate.

The final protective layer consists mainly of the organic coordination layer. In applying said compositions, there is however no cause for preoccupation that the layer may not be absolutely continuous, in that any discontinuity regions are protected by the underlying phosphate layer, consisting of tertiary Zn, Fe and Fe/Zn phosphates in various proportions.

The purpose of the organic solvents, by dissolving the organic component but not the inorganic salts, is to protect the organic components from prolonged contact with phosphoric acid during storage of the formulations. When applying them, they in no way hinder the formation of a perfectly homogeneous, uniformly applicable system, because of their perfect and complete miscibility with water. They also eliminate heterogeneous substances such as fats, oils, workshop dust and the like from the surface to be treated, provided they are present in limited quantities.

The aforelisted components are present in the new compositions in quantities within the critical limits specified hereinafter. The percentages are by weight of the total weight of the composition, organic solvents and water included:

The quercetin derivative of monogalloylellagic acid is present in the composition in a quantity of between 15 and 30%. A quantity of less than 15% leads to a final incoherent layer, whereas a quantity exceeding 30% makes the stability of the composition in solution questionable.

The phosphoric acid is present in a quantity of between 2 and 3.2%; the Zn(HPO.sub.4).sub.2 in a quantity of between 1.1 and 2%; and the Zn(NO.sub.3).sub.2 in a quantity of between 7 and 12%. Any deficiency in one of these three latter components results in a lower initial reaction rate and the formation of a final incoherent protective layer. Any excess in one or more of said components excessively slows down the various competing processes for the formation of the protective layer, and thus slows down overall the formation of the protective layer on the treated surface.

The ascorbic acid is present in the composition in a quantity of between 0.05 and 0.5%. The minimum indicated limit corresponds to the minimum necessary for acting as an accelerator for the layer formation process. Any excess beyond 0.5% is of no advantage, and in fact can be damaging in that it begins to interfere with the other components.

The organic solvent as heretofore defined is a mixture of solvents, in which each component has a specific purpose. Said mixture consists of isopropyl alcohol the main purpose of which is to degrease the metal surface, propylene glycol which retards the drying of the layer and thus favours uniformity, and ethoxypropanol which has a considerable solvent power for said quercetin derivative and therefore protects it within certain limits from the aqueous acid phase. In total, the organic solvent constitutes between 18 and 32% of the composition, and its individual components are distributed in the following manner: isopropyl alcohol 5-15%, propylene glycol 5-15%, ethoxypropanol 2-8% of the composition. Water and the quercetin derivative are added to the total of the stated organic solvent in its indicated percentages, to arrive at 100%. In this manner, a homogeneous solution is obtained.

The following series of steps has given positive results, and is indicated by way of example only:

preparation of a premix consisting of a solution of the phosphoric acid, Zn phosphate and Zn nitrate in water

addition of the monogalloylellagic acid quercetin derivative under agitation to the uniform premix obtained in this manner

addition of the organic solvents to the obtained aqueous solution, addition of the ascorbic acid and finally addition of the water necessary to obtain the required composition.

This enables the new antirust process to be used for any type of object whether of large dimensions such as ships in shipyards, gasholders, tanks, reaction columns and the like, and of small dimensions such as automobile body components.

The compositions are applied at ambient temperature, preferably between 15.degree. C. and 30.degree. C., in layers of variable thickness depending on the state of the steel surface.

Generally, 3-5 micron layers are sufficient. Under normal conditions, drying is complete and the protective layer stable after about 24 hours. It is preferable however to wait at least 48 hours before applying any subsequent layers.

The mixed organic-inorganic antirust layers obtained according to the present invention have proved compatible with any finishing layer applied to them, and in particular with any type of paint. They ensure electrical insulation of the metal surfaces, perfect bonding of subsequent finishing layers and particularly of paint, and a considerable increase in the corrosion resistance of the object.

______________________________________

phosphoric acid 2.5% by weight

Zn phosphate 1.5% by weight

Zn nitrate 11.0% by weight

quercetin derivative of a

22.0% by weight

monogalloylellagic acid

isopropyl alcohol, propylene

25.0% by weight

glycol, ethoxypropanol

ascorbic acid 0.2% by weight

water 37.8% by weight



In all cases the steel test pieces, of dimensions 10.5.times.19.5 cm, were covered with a final paint layer using a ship painting procedure, and were then subjected to a resistance test in a corrosion chamber in accordance with the ASTM B 117-64 procedure.

As can be seen from the FIGURE diagrams, phosphating treatment considerably improves the corrosion resistance of the steel, but the results obtained with the new treatment according to the invention are much better.

______________________________________

phosphoric acid + Zn phosphate + Zn nitrate

25.5%

tannin extract 22.3%

CH.sub.2 O 2.0%

isopropanol 10.5%

ethylene glycol 10.5%

butyl cellosolve 2.5%

cellosolve 1.5%

water 24.2%

[QUOTE]Originally posted by willys36@aol.com
[B]A couple corrections to statements in your dissertation;

A) A quote from Dr. Linus Pauling, Nobel prize winner in chemistry, College Chemistry, Third Edition, W. H. Freeman and Co., 1964, page 647, "Pure iron is a bright silvery-white metal, which tarnishes (rusts rapidly) in moist air or in water containing dissolved oxygen."

Freeman - or his quote does not define PURITY.

Purity - there is no such thing as purity, there are only degrees of impurity.

(not counting individual atoms and the like - lol "Can I have 1 atom of Hubble Space Telescope reflector gold thanks" )


This was written up in 1964....

And Freeman did the best he could with what he had at that time... not a problem.... and in 1964 the definition of "pure iron" - well I am not sure what standard he used, be it "commercially pure" (soft) iron as found in "pure" iron oxy welding rods (of 1964), or was he reffering to analytical grade "pure iron" of 1964 purity / standard.

Degree's of refinement = exponentially accelerated costs..


For the record, there is not much I can think of that is actually pure anything.... it's just reductions of other elements to a degree that they are inconsequential to the task at hand.

Consider for instance "distilled water" that no matter how often or how much it is redistilled, it will always contain some degree of impurity - either as carry over or as pick up in the redistilation process.

And no one wants to pay $Megabucks for a thimble full of water that is superduper atomically vacuume magneto interferometally distilled to a purity of 99.999999999999999999999% pure, just to top up their car battery.

For everything analytical, most lab chemicals (e.g. iron) have certain degrees of purity...


But since 1964 - every man and his dog has a lazer in every device, my entire 50 album collection of LP records fits neatly onto 1 CD, and they have milling machines that pick off atoms 1 at a time... and no one uses 16mm movie cameras or 8 track cassette decks any more.

From what I remember of my wizard electrochemical reactions - that the valency structure of the outer electron shell/s of iron does not allow it to combine with oxygen in a straight coupling, I think it needs a go between reaction - to lose or gain an electron or two, to make the iron atom change into an electron deficient or surplus state, to make it reactive and combinable with oxygen.

Like "commercially pure iron" is actually only about 99 - 99.5% pure iron that has crap like carbon, silicon, manganese, boron, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen and etc., mixed in with it....

And it's the ion (electron) exchange that occours with some of these elements, in the set up of an electrolytic cell (water + ionisable compound [e.g. salts] + air) that allows the iron and other elements and compounds to react, that enables the oxygen to then combine with the iron......

And with Freemans dissertation, and as yet undetermined "purity level" that "pure" iron rusts rapidly in moist air, well air (mixture of gasses) - e.g. CO2 and water make carbolic acid and that "wet air" coating iron will set up electrolytic cells between the iron and its constituent contaminatory elements.

However once the impurities fall below a certain level, the effect or rate of corrosion in an electrolytic cell is basically non existant.

Some wizard about 2 or 3 years back, with excellent re-re-re-refining of "pure iron" got it to 99.99 or 99.999% or was it 99.9998% pure and he proved that "pure iron" DOES NOT rust.

Willys36 - you need to update your reference material.....


But if you don't like this bit of advice, when you have your next heart attack Pop's, be sure to insist your surgeon uses the 1964 surgical manual, instruments and proceedures.

Last edited by ButtWeldor; 09-02-2004 at 11:18 PM.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2004, 07:03 AM
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wow - i feel like i am listening to my chemistry teachers again.
it is more interesting than before
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:00 AM
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Some time ago I came across a web site where the guy did a very fair side by side test of most of the popular "rust converters" at home.

None work very well since they only convert the scale and can't etch to new metal.

I've been using the Duplicolor "Rust Fix" because it is compatible with just about everything (filler/glas/urathane/etc) and makes a waterproof (acrylic?) film seal as a first layer of protection.

Doors have a tough life, wet/hot/cold/banging/full of dirt, perfect for making rust. They need to be acid dipped then literally pour in some epoxy and turn them every which way till all is coated. Do the trunk lid and hood while your at it.

For inside the roof, I sanded (80 grit) and sandblasted all I could then sprayed and brushed Duplicolor truck bed liner directly on to the scratched steel. It loves to grab bare metal!

It is a fantastic "rust stopper" because it is a heavy molecular weight vinyl polymer in a xylene carrier that really grabs to metal and forms a very tough WATER AND OXYGEN PROOF skin when cured for 3 days.

More good news, found a thin spot, just make sure its clean and spray it, no prep, the Duplicolor re-wets itself and bonds to the thin layer.

More good news, one $7 can from Walmart will do all of the inside of a fender to about 5-7 mils thick.

More good news, don't want a black surface, you can topcoat with Alkyd Enamel (and get more protection).

More good news, it has almost no overspray, if you do a "whoops" wipe it off IMMEDIATELY with laquer thinner( it drys and grabs fast).

Duplicolor tech support told me that the xylene carrier is "too hot" to top coat with DPLF epoxy and "may" cause lifting? I tried it on some bedliner sprayed areas that had cured for a month. Scratching/sanding test shows no lifting, seems to have a great bond. OH YEAH! BEDLINER SPRAY AND EPOXY! Now thats rust stopping protection.

Steve
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:49 PM
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por 15, best ive used so far
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Old 11-21-2004, 04:53 AM
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to mitmaks

I can tell you the worst I've found for sheet steel, Ospho (atleast for Florida humidity).

Sandblasted a pair of 65 Mustang headlight lamp buckets 2 years ago, coated them with Ospho, put them in a box in my dry garage. The only part that's NOT severely rusted is the original paint areas I didn't remove.

Stripped/sanded/wire wheeled the pitted top of a gas tank, ospho coated it, Rustoleum red primed it, Rustoleum white enameled it 2 years ago (Ospho "recommends" alkyd enamel top coat).

It did get wet once in the last Hurricane, it's 6 weeks later, the white enamel's not white, rust is bleeding thru.

My main point to everybody is some stripping/dipping shops do use Ospho and some body shops will tell you "first we have to Ospho your car to get rid of rust".

Not on my car thank you.
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