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Old 07-18-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Lizer View Post
So tonight I just concentrated on the driver's fender mostly. I shimmed the bottom of the fender where it bolts to the rocker, though I don't want to suck the fender in, I actually want it to bow OUT. I just shimmed it with a cupped washer I had. Can't tell for sure how much it helped though I think it might have lowered the top of the fender some.

I tried shimming the front of the fender but this made it reeeaaally high off the fender skirt. I think I need to put a jack on the floor and use a board to push up that area of the fender skirt just a bit.

The biggest improvement I did was loosening the hinge on the door and pulling the top of the door OUT. This made the gap at the top of the door and fender line up laterally, though the fender still sits just a little bit higher than the door, but I think it's better than it was.

But I still have the problem with the point from the door body line sticking out farther than the fender body line point. If I pull the fender out to line up with it, then I get a big gap between the fender and the cowl, at least 1/4" or maybe 3/8". I'm almost ready to just live with it at this point.

Henry--where does this slice go that you speak of?

Ok, so feel free to comment more on this door, otherwise we can focus on the passenger side door now, I think it's going to be more involved.

Brian, I still need to check the insides and the vent windows. never got around to that tonight. I get some serious ADD in the shop....work on fender...look for hood hinge....go check on the horses...decide to check hay field...decide to pull weeds in field...oh look there's an apple tree!...let's move the horses to another pasture...oh, the fender!
in the jamb where it gets thin. Sometimes the peak of the fender and top body line need to be pushed down or rolled. You can take the fender off and get creative and roll it with force, just make sure that's the problem first.

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Old 07-18-2013, 10:31 AM
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As Henry pointed out another thing you may need to do, remember, aligning panels like these is a dance. Sometimes it's a friggin broadway play with a stage covered with dancers, there is no one way and there are no easy steps, dancers have to work together to make it all work.

Brian

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Old 07-19-2013, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
in the jamb where it gets thin.
I'm not following...as in cut the edge of the fender skin where it wraps around, push it out in that area (so that it lines up with the door body line), then reweld? Or something completely different all together?
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:13 AM
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one thing you should remember is to mount and adjust the fenders (all panels) BEFORE doing any body work and all this could have been avoided..
That wont help you now though. heres an example of what I was saying earlier about test fitting the moldings ....That little ear at the top of the fender could have gotten bent from standing the fender up against a wall so dont take for granted that just because it fit before it should fit now ...also dont get all tunnel vissioned on the fenders without the hood on all three have to be done as a unit..otherwise you could spend all day trying to adjust a fender bending this and cutting that just to find out it was all for nothing because the hood wont fit and the actual problem was something simple.... the moldings are also important in fitting the sheetmetal as this guy found out...
When I adjust the sheet metal its much easier to do it without the inner skirts then the rad support has to be nice and loose then I'll bolt on fender (loosely) with just a couple bolts ,the header that connects the two fenders at the front then the other fender....if everything is only lightly snugged down or even loose you should be able to slide the whole nose from side to side as a unit..and up and down by lifting the support lifting the support will change the gaps at the bottom of the fender and door widening them ,I think a lot ofyou problem is right there its hard to tell from a pic but I think you have to lift that support a little two....but nevermind that for now...
OK so you have the fenders and header bolted together and bolted to the support, now what you want to do is locate the bolt holes at the top of the cowl that the fender mounts to and cross measure both bolt holes with the fender mount holes on the support to make it square do thie by sliding the support one way or the other.....Then look at the bottom fender to door gaps ,if they are tight the support needs to go up....Then the hood goes on ,concentrate on the hood to header gap being right first because you know the header is square so the hood will be square when that gap is right....THEN adjust the fender to hood gaps by pushing the fenders in or out....once you do all this first THEN you can get perfection out of the gaps ....other wise your chasing your tail ,everytime you get one thing perfect you throw something else out of wack...
So My best advise is start at the beginning if you crack the bondo ,well thats a tough,hard lesson to learn but one you will never make again It all should have been assembled after it was epoxied and before any filler was applied..
Then
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:23 AM
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Very good point Mike, if it breaks it breaks. And really, a large flexing panel like that isn't going to break filler, not unless it was applied CRAZY thick like a half inch or something. Normal filler repairs flex quite a bit without breaking.
It is of course a little late to be suggesting to trail fit before hand and I forgot all about it, good catch. It can't be said enough. Here's a "Basics" on the subject.

"Basics of Basics" Trial fitting parts


And one on fitting panels, maybe something can be found in here to help you too Lizer.

Panel Alignment - Autobodystore

But now, as Mike said, if something has to be re-done, it has to be re-done, we have all been there sadly to say.

Brian
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:35 AM
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I read a little of the trail fitting parts and I hit this line "Trial fitting is not holding the part up and saying, “yep it fits”

This really holds so true, I have seen a bodyman who I worked with do just this, he "made" the part fit instead of making the part not fit when trial fitting, if this makes any sense at all.

In other words if you want to see no flaws, you don't. But you sure as hell will during final assembly!

I would watch him (and after I pointed it out he STILL did it) where he would hold the tram gauge across an engine compartment and literally PUSH the pointer into the hole he was measuring too!

While if I was measuring the same engine compartment to see if it was square I would WANT to find if it's bad and SEE that the pointer was off by three mm and this would HELP me in getting the thing square. He would force the pointer in to the hole showing him what he WANTED to see, perfection. But then when final assembly came and the hood and lights didn't fit, he didn't understand why!

Brian
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:43 AM
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Lizer,

the least important panel being the cowl panel, but for this, yeah it's important. What I'm saying is that if everything is right and you closely look at the fender you'll easily see if it needs to be rolled. you can just look at it and tell, but this is after you've tried everything else. The areas you'll need to cut are the same way. You first try to roll it and check fit, after trying a few clever things to do that and it doesn't work, then you cut it and weld it, and the area doesn't always necessarily have a thin area, but most times it does, and a lot of times it cracks there as well.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
one thing you should remember is to mount and adjust the fenders (all panels) BEFORE doing any body work and all this could have been avoided..
That wont help you now though. heres an example of what I was saying earlier about test fitting the moldings ....That little ear at the top of the fender could have gotten bent from standing the fender up against a wall so dont take for granted that just because it fit before it should fit now ...also dont get all tunnel vissioned on the fenders without the hood on all three have to be done as a unit..otherwise you could spend all day trying to adjust a fender bending this and cutting that just to find out it was all for nothing because the hood wont fit and the actual problem was something simple.... the moldings are also important in fitting the sheetmetal as this guy found out...
When I adjust the sheet metal its much easier to do it without the inner skirts then the rad support has to be nice and loose then I'll bolt on fender (loosely) with just a couple bolts ,the header that connects the two fenders at the front then the other fender....if everything is only lightly snugged down or even loose you should be able to slide the whole nose from side to side as a unit..and up and down by lifting the support lifting the support will change the gaps at the bottom of the fender and door widening them ,I think a lot ofyou problem is right there its hard to tell from a pic but I think you have to lift that support a little two....but nevermind that for now...
OK so you have the fenders and header bolted together and bolted to the support, now what you want to do is locate the bolt holes at the top of the cowl that the fender mounts to and cross measure both bolt holes with the fender mount holes on the support to make it square do thie by sliding the support one way or the other.....Then look at the bottom fender to door gaps ,if they are tight the support needs to go up....Then the hood goes on ,concentrate on the hood to header gap being right first because you know the header is square so the hood will be square when that gap is right....THEN adjust the fender to hood gaps by pushing the fenders in or out....once you do all this first THEN you can get perfection out of the gaps ....other wise your chasing your tail ,everytime you get one thing perfect you throw something else out of wack...
So My best advise is start at the beginning if you crack the bondo ,well thats a tough,hard lesson to learn but one you will never make again It all should have been assembled after it was epoxied and before any filler was applied..
Then
The ONLY adjustment I can truly make here is with the fender and/or door. This is a 67 Mustang and the inner fender skirts and radiator support are NOT adjustable; they are all welded in place. The only thing I can adjust is how the fender sits on them.

Several problems I'm up against that have come up between Mike and Brian (and Brian hit the nail on the heady, I'll explain later)...I started this car in 2009. A lot of time has gone by since then and now, and I started out knowing nothing and being brand new at it. Fast forward to now I've learned a lot and have developed more of a touch for all these things. But now it's like I'm trying to finish a car that an 'amateur' started.

Another problem--the farther I get, things that I used to let slide I'm now not happy with. I'm getting picker with some things.

And to touch on what Brian said--he nailed it: I would put the panels on the car (this was like 3 years ago) and be like, 'yeah, it's pretty close, and they're original panels so if they fit originally they'll fit again. I'm sure I'll be able to get it just perfect when I'm actually trying.'

WELL WE ALL KNOW HOW THAT GOES!

So thus the reason I'm doing all this now, while I still can.

I'm going to roll this fender if I can figure out a clever way, if I crack the filler, I crack it. When I originally applied that filler I bet it took me a week to get it right. It would only take me about 2 hours to have it right if I were to do it again today. Not to mention I'm using a lot better filler now than I started out using.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:42 PM
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The ONLY adjustment I can truly make here is with the fender and/or door. This is a 67 Mustang and the inner fender skirts and radiator support are NOT adjustable; they are all welded in place. The only thing I can adjust is how the fender sits on them.

Several problems I'm up against that have come up between Mike and Brian (and Brian hit the nail on the heady, I'll explain later)...I started this car in 2009. A lot of time has gone by since then and now, and I started out knowing nothing and being brand new at it. Fast forward to now I've learned a lot and have developed more of a touch for all these things. But now it's like I'm trying to finish a car that an 'amateur' started.

Another problem--the farther I get, things that I used to let slide I'm now not happy with. I'm getting picker with some things.

And to touch on what Brian said--he nailed it: I would put the panels on the car (this was like 3 years ago) and be like, 'yeah, it's pretty close, and they're original panels so if they fit originally they'll fit again. I'm sure I'll be able to get it just perfect when I'm actually trying.'

WELL WE ALL KNOW HOW THAT GOES!

So thus the reason I'm doing all this now, while I still can.

I'm going to roll this fender if I can figure out a clever way, if I crack the filler, I crack it. When I originally applied that filler I bet it took me a week to get it right. It would only take me about 2 hours to have it right if I were to do it again today. Not to mention I'm using a lot better filler now than I started out using.
heck yeah he's right. On the lower end cars we do we simply don't have the time to check every panel so panels like lower valiances get held up and if there's nothing eye popping than it stays. For the price they pay it works out most of the time but sometimes there will be a problem. For instance...On the cougar I just did the apron was replaced and did a quick measurement because I noticed it. The cowl was pushed back a hair so that means doing "the dance" with a little of this and a little of that, if he's not paying for it to be fixed right. Thing was, I didn't notice the apron was replaced til AFTER I got the fender off, which means after I lined up the panels. I should have measured first but the gaps were close right off the bat. They also didn't have the right squares to place the clips into and used nuts and bolts on the apron. So, when I made the squares for the clips this altered the ability to move the fenders, which allowed me to give it better gaps on final mock up. The problem occurred when I had better hood to fender gaps because it caused the fender extensions to misallign so I had to gently bend the mounting flange while it was in paint! Nothing I'd want to do with my own car but when dealing with panels it's like a dominoes affect almost and so when Martin says "doing the dance" that reminds me of those moments where you can't seem to figure out why it's not aligning or perhaps traditional methods aren't working, so you do a little of this and a little of that and bingo...looks good! Obviously, I don't like not having the luxury on all our cars to not go the full distance but this is something every shop and every tech has to deal with. I have three modes... the showcar anal butt mode/ the production mode/ and the driver resto mode/....also had a maaco mode but those days are long gone.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:20 PM
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so you do a little of this and a little of that and bingo...looks good!
So tonight I did a little bit of this and a little bit of that and bingo...looks good!

That's the cliff's notes version...

I took the fender off, there's a heavy brace at the back of it so there's no way I was going to bow it, and removing that brace would have been far too much effort.

I raised the top of the fender skirts at the front near the rad support with a jack and short piece of 2x4. That prob didn't help much but still needed to be done.

Now that the fender was off, I could get good access to loosen hinge bolts on door and slam it in as far as I could so it was more flush with rocker.

Then after putting fender back on, there is an L shaped bracket it bolts to on bottom, just to the rear of the tire. I wised up and loosened up the bracket with the fender loosely bolted to it and then I had a lot more range of movement. Pushing that in brings that back of the fender out.

At the rocker, I pulled the bottom edge of the fender out. This is where I sacrificed a flush panel to make others better, but it is least obvious here and will be covered by rocker molding.

Now by this point, it was lined up pretty darn well, door edge still stuck out just a tad farther, but sighting down the side of the car from the front it wasn't obvious. So as Brian said earlier, now nothing is 'perfect,' but everything is 'pretty good.' There is also a lot more space between the door and fender at that body line right at the point when the door is just being opened.

I taped up the rocker molding to make sure it will go on ok. Seems like it should, can see a little bit where the fender is out a little farther than the rocker.

Taped up the windshield molding and looks pretty good. I can't find any of my original molding clips so I couldn't clip it on, I had to hold it on and force just a bit to simulate the form it would have.

I have a just under a 1/4" gap between fender and cowl. Won't know how this will pan out until I throw the hood on. Which can't happen yet because I have no idea where one of my hood hinges went. I think it packed up and left home.

All was good until I decided to try to make one last adjustment and pull the top of the door out. Then that just messed up everything and then I couldn't get it back just the way it was. Always tomorrow I guess...
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:28 AM
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For some reason I thought you were working on a camaro.Oh well, at least your getting there,
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Old 07-20-2013, 08:26 AM
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I just saw this thread and was going to bring up the bracket at the center of the fender bow to cowl. That will let the bow come out to match the door.

As for the fender sitting too high at the door, loosen the center bracket, leave the bottom bolts tight, grab a piece of 2x4 and PUSH the high spot down. There is usually enough give for the metal to bend slightly and that's all you need.

But really, you need to install the vent to get the door where it belongs BEFORE aligning the fender to the door. I just went thru all this on a '65 Mustang and it's critical to align the door/vent first.
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Old 07-20-2013, 08:35 AM
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I just saw this thread and was going to bring up the bracket at the center of the fender bow to cowl. That will let the bow come out to match the door.

As for the fender sitting too high at the door, loosen the center bracket, leave the bottom bolts tight, grab a piece of 2x4 and PUSH the high spot down. There is usually enough give for the metal to bend slightly and that's all you need.

But really, you need to install the vent to get the door where it belongs BEFORE aligning the fender to the door. I just went thru all this on a '65 Mustang and it's critical to align the door/vent first.
what is this vent you speak of?
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Old 07-20-2013, 08:51 AM
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The vent window in the door.

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Old 07-20-2013, 06:07 PM
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I'm rather happy with myself right now...got the other door fixed in a matter of about 10 min. I beat it into submission and now it lines up great. Just need to work on the gap, am probably going to have to grind a little bit off the edge of the door skin in that top corner because there's a lot of material that doesn't need to be there. This is a reproduction door skin to the original fender. I don't know why it is, but my original quarter extensions line up better on my reproduction quarter instead of the original quarter as well.

I'm going to have to do a little more tapping on the curved part of that door skin to reshape it so I make more of a transition to where I just knocked it down. Using a round dolly, gets nowhere fast doing that. Using my flat fender hammer moves metal fast but doesn't leave it looking pretty. Guess that's what filler's for?

I'm sure what happened on that skin there is as I was pounding the flange down on the back side, I probably pounded that curved area straight.
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