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Old 05-30-2006, 03:11 PM
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Is black the easiest paint to match later?

I don't know if this is a dumb question or not, but I'd always been told that if you do a car with a solid black paint, it can be touched up later or other panels can be repaired and the match will be nearly perfect because "black is always black".

Is this true, or is it just one of those "common knowledge" things that turns out to be bogus?

Or, was it more true in the days of lacquer and single-stage urethane, but less so with BC/CC?

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Old 05-30-2006, 04:28 PM
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black

Actually yes and no to your question.....All blacks are not the same.Duponts single stage has a brown cast.Spies Hecker and PPG have the blue black cast and in my opion are nicer looking.Whatever black you use thats the one you should use for touchup, if the need ever arises.
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Old 05-30-2006, 05:18 PM
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I own a body shop,and in my experinces,black is not always black,but it is easy to match.Some codes call for different toners or black.On my Diamount mixing system alone there are about 7 versions of black.Some are bluer,some ard more brown,some are more grey and so on and so on.The thing is,if you paint your car withstraight black toner off of PPG's system,if you need to repair it later,and you use PPG's black toner,you should not have a problem.JMHO.
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:46 PM
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"Black is Black" is a thousand miles wrong. Black is one of the hardest colors to match, mostly because people don't give it the respect it deserves.

First off, there is NO SUCH THING as "black". Yep, there is NO "Black" cars or "black" paint, PERIOD. The carbon or at least a huge majority of it was removed from paint back in the late seventies. What you see as "black" is really dark blue, dark brown, or dark red. And nothing looks worse than a dark blue "Black" car with a dark red fender.

You have to match a black JUST LIKE any other color. There are some formulas available on line, do a search. There are MANY colors in every "Black" formula that I know of. There are ways to shoot a custom "Black" that is pretty darn close to black (check out SPI) but there is no factory car that I know of that you will find less than a three or four colors in the formula. And then things get even crazier because each paint manufacturer has different shades of black toners so they have to have some crazy formula to make their screwed up black toner match the "Black" color of a car.

NO, "Black" is most certainly not "Black".

Brian
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Old 05-30-2006, 11:39 PM
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Maybe I am reading your post wrong Brian. You may be getting more techinical than what I am thinking but I would think that being the SW/ MS guru you would be very familiar with MS code 8800 GM fleet Black. When ever I need straight black paint that is what my jobber mixes.

Using this Crossfire mixing label as an example.

56A-8800-0
Black General Motors Fleet (1pint)
CF100 Strong Black 205.8
CF223 B/C Fixer 343.6
CF224 Balance Solv. 435.1

In this example the only color the jobber is using to make black is black.

By contrast:

56-33756-A
Black General Motors Passenger Car (1 quart)
CF100 Stong Black 404.9
CF128 Free.Yellow 411.2
CF122 Strong White 413.0
CF223 B/C Fixer 688.7
CF224 Balance Solv. 871.8

This black has yellow and white in addition to black.

Maybe you are talking about the actual CF100 Strong Black toner having something else in it. Not sure.
My point is anyone looking for straight black should ask the jobber for GM fleet black.
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Old 05-30-2006, 11:51 PM
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My point is, the CF100 "black" ISN'T black!

If you spray that color out and then mix up the same style "black" formula in DuPont or PPG and spray that out you will see that there is a difference.

The lower formula you give is actually made to match the "black" that is on the car that is painted at the factory with what ever brand of paint they use that likely has a single toner in it as well.

When I did my brothers Roadster I went to the paint store and poured out all the blacks in a few different brands, believe me they all were NOT black.

If you were to get a formula for the very same GM black in the Tec/BASE line you may find that it uses different colors to make the same "black". The reason is, the Cross/FIRE "Black" toner may be a "dark red" while the Tec/BASE is a "dark blue". I have never tried them so I don't know. But without a doubt if you get a PPG, DuPont, Sikkens etc. formulas for the same GM black you will see completly different toners used, I mean different COLORS.

Now, just as with any color, if you were to keep the formula on hand and touch the car up with paint mixed off that same formula it certainly should match. But to go get "GM fleet black" in PPG and them paint a fender down the road in DuPonts "GM fleet black", believe me, you are going to have two different colors.

Brian
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Old 05-31-2006, 12:13 AM
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I figured you were trying to state something along those lines.

Quote:
there is no factory car that I know of that you will find less than a three or four colors in the formula.
This is what my post was in reference to.

In regards to the original question at hand I say from my experience the answer is yes. Black is absoulutely without a doubt the easiest color to match later on that I have personally sprayed.

Its simple. If I am doing a repair on a black vehicle with factory paint I will get the jobber to mix the paint according to the code given. If someone brings me something custom that they simply want black I get the paint mixed as 8800 GM fleet black. With only one color toner in the mixture odds are the paint clerk isn't going to mix it wrong in the future if I need to do a repair.

In either case as long as you know the color code or what paint was used during a repaint black will be the easiest color to match up in the future. I find that even if the black is a little off it is much less noticeable than say a white that is a little off. At least it is to my eyes.

Last edited by bloverby; 05-31-2006 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 05-31-2006, 08:09 AM
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Thanks for everyone's comments - I should have been more clear - I didn't expect "black" from other manufacturers to match each other. I was assuming that, if the need arises, I would stay within the same line of the same manufacturer.

I've always liked black, but your bodywork has to be flawless. However, the ability to easily match repairs in the future is a big plus for a home painter.
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Old 05-31-2006, 09:19 AM
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Here are some other thoughts on picking a color. One of them being that black hides body lines and makes the car look smaller.

Basic of Basics - Choosing a color

Brian
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Old 05-31-2006, 10:31 AM
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Thanks for the link to your write-up, Brian.

I knew black made cars look smaller, but I didn't realize what it did to body lines. Although, now that I think about it, it does make sense.
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Old 05-31-2006, 11:21 AM
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I was looking for a pure black for a 1960 Impala, and was told to try SPI. They were right, it is the blackest black I,ve seen in a long time.
Bob
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Old 05-31-2006, 08:59 PM
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Yeah, I have never used it but in talking to Barry that was of course the main objective when he decided to do black, make it the blackest darn black there was.

That is all I meant with my long post, there is no REAL "Black" and just make sure you use the same company when you repaint something down the road.

Brian
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Old 05-31-2006, 10:19 PM
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Thanks Brian.

Quote:
That is all I meant with my long post, there is no REAL "Black" and just make sure you use the same company when you repaint something down the road.
That is the point I felt was getting lost when I originally posted to this thread.
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Old 05-31-2006, 10:53 PM
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Sorry, I get lost easy.

Brian
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Old 06-01-2006, 05:52 AM
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I don't really know.

I will say this over the last three or four years of all the shops I visit the general comments I hear is White and Black are the biggest problems with matching.
Now to qualify this these would be statement from shops doing everyday collision repair.

This would make sense to me as there are so many ways to make black before any color is added.
Running through the mill once or eight time and any amount of times in between and different size milling media with each run also makes a big difference.
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