Black Work Van with old removed decal fade showing up- Way to eliminate this? - Page 3 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2012, 07:18 AM
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"plain? how a decal thats got paint and primer between it and the metal, could do anything to the metal..

it's a decal not an english wheel.."

Simple, actually watched this done to an aluminum fire truck, a major pi$$-off.

As you sand down the paint you will sand thru around the lettering/decal and sand down the metal leaving the pattern to show thru. You will actually etch the pattern into the metal to show thru FOREVER. It is lesser with steel but it will still show thru.

Be very careful to avoid this and hand block the panels before priming. All primers have solvent in them so they all shrink down.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2012, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Back in the 80's we were still using lacquer primer so that dont count.and a two tone painted edge is totally different ,its a much thicker edge...and nobody can can change the cure time of epoxy,it'll take 3-4 coats using epoxy ,two coats with 2k...
I'm not trying to pee you off shine I'm simply disagreeing with you and offering an easier ,cheaper and faster way ...as I said before your way works too...

LACQUER... ahhh. Yes that may make a pretty big difference. I was thinking you were talking 2k. Oh yeah, lacquer shows anything underneath itself. It's not going to hide much. I use lacquer still very regularly and it's a very weak system. It's great in that it melts into itself but it also shrinks like crazy over time and anything underneath is going to show up eventually. Also back to melting itself, it could melt whatever was there before possibly. There are a lot of little details there that could create the right situation for the old decals to show themselves again. I can definitely understand the bird situation you described before happening with lacquer.

I wonder if this still applies to a 2k catalyzed finish as far as hiding the old sticker marks/ghosting.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2012, 06:19 PM
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ok , explain it to me since i dont get it. 1/2 inch tape stripe removed , 2 tone edges feathered down. primed ,blocked painted. 1/2 inch stripe shows up.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2012, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by shine
ok , explain it to me since i dont get it. 1/2 inch tape stripe removed , 2 tone edges feathered down. primed ,blocked painted. 1/2 inch stripe shows up.
That's a weird thing I realize but Lacquer tends to eat into plastics. So... and this is a guess here as I'm no chemist (just somewhat of a hack who's sprayed hundreds of gallons of NC lacquer over the last close to 10 years now) bu un-catalyzed finishes (solvent base) will eat up a plastic in direct contact and do some exchange. When I say eat up, I'm not sure what's eating what and it's not something you see on a large scale but it's there. For example, if I place a piece I've finished in NC lacquer on a piece of foam packing material (you know the white colored thin foam sheets that's used in shipping) the foam will leave a deep visible imprint on my nicely buffed lacquered piece. It's something that takes about 10 hours to happen and the longer it sits the worse the printing gets even to the point where I have to start over if it goes long enough. It's very obvious that something chemical is happening between the lacquer and the plastic material it was resting on.

So my guess (and just a guess of course) is that something in the pin stripe probably intermingled with whatever solvents were in the lacquer. How to pinpoint whatever it is is beyond me but I do know that weird things happen with un-catalyzed finishes.

But I'm talking NC lacquer. I don't know about Acrylic (wasn't that what you were talking about Shine)? I'm guessing since it's also not a 2k product, it also would have similar problems as far as not really ever becoming stable or fixed/catalyzed. I do know lacquer thinner will dissolve acrylics just like NC. So I'd think it'd have solvent exchange with plastics. Especially so since the plastic was applied at the factory when the solvents were still fresh and hot.

Last edited by 777funk; 02-09-2012 at 07:19 PM.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2012, 04:37 AM
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your just not going to listen . i've explained it now on 2 web sites. lacquer has nothing to do with it .

for anyone else following this. the tape was removed . the edge of the 2 tone did not ghost back but rather the stripe did. even though it was sanded down to factory primer. the metal took on the shape of the stripe due to exposure.

just as a metal patch will ghost in the sun sometimes. metal expands and contracts in the heat and uv .
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2012, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
your just not going to listen . i've explained it now on 2 web sites. lacquer has nothing to do with it .

for anyone else following this. the tape was removed . the edge of the 2 tone did not ghost back but rather the stripe did. even though it was sanded down to factory primer. the metal took on the shape of the stripe due to exposure.

just as a metal patch will ghost in the sun sometimes. metal expands and contracts in the heat and uv .
No Shine, not trying to rile you and also not saying I'm not listening. But I agree with Deadbodyman that the fact that it was lacquer may very well have had something to do with it. I use lacquer all the time so I know how prone it is to reacting with plastics. If it's not catalyzed it WILL react with most plastics in contact. If you don't believe me do this, finish a piece of metal in lacquer (use 8-12 thinned coats since it's lacquer and evaporates), let it cure then set a roll of electrical tape on it for a week. And I'm talking just one week and watch what happens where you set the tape roll. I'd be surprised if you can sand it level and rebuff and not have it come back at least a few times after repeating the sanding and buffing process. And on the vehicles it had been on there much longer than a week which makes it even worse. The longer it sits, the worse it gets.

Now your theory about the metal expansion and contraction, not saying that it isn't so. I'm just saying that it's a theory. It very well may be the cause of this problem. All I'm saying is that when Deadbodyman mentioned the word lacquer, it put a whole different spin on this in my opinion of what I think is happening here.

I'd like to hear if others have experienced the ghosting with 2k.

Last edited by 777funk; 02-10-2012 at 07:10 AM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2012, 07:15 AM
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go back and read the post again. show me where vinyl and primer ever touched. do it your way.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2012, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
your just not going to listen . i've explained it now on 2 web sites. lacquer has nothing to do with it .

for anyone else following this. the tape was removed . the edge of the 2 tone did not ghost back but rather the stripe did. even though it was sanded down to factory primer. the metal took on the shape of the stripe due to exposure.

just as a metal patch will ghost in the sun sometimes. metal expands and contracts in the heat and uv .
Are you saying that it was sanded down to the factory primer, and not the bare metal? If this is the case, the metal has nothing to do with it. The factory primer is what was effected, not the metal. It's like when someone sands the scratch in paint down to the primer and then repaints and the "scratch" ghosts back. The primer was pulled off the metal by the force of the nail or what ever running over the paint. Sort of like if you put a piece of rubber sheet on the desk and run your finger over it and it will pull up off the desk with your finger looking like a snake.

If the primer wasn't sanded off under those stripes to bare metal, all bets are off as to it being seen later.

Brian
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2012, 12:41 PM
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on second thought screw it .
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2012, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Are you saying that it was sanded down to the factory primer, and not the bare metal? If this is the case, the metal has nothing to do with it. The factory primer is what was effected, not the metal. It's like when someone sands the scratch in paint down to the primer and then repaints and the "scratch" ghosts back. The primer was pulled off the metal by the force of the nail or what ever running over the paint. Sort of like if you put a piece of rubber sheet on the desk and run your finger over it and it will pull up off the desk with your finger looking like a snake.

If the primer wasn't sanded off under those stripes to bare metal, all bets are off as to it being seen later.

Brian
I think he said he sanded to bare metal.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2012, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
on second thought screw it .

Shine, you have to admit this sounds ludicrous. And if I said it and you hadn't experienced it, you would say I was off my rocker. It sounds that ludicrous.

I am just trying to understand what you are saying and it makes no sense. All I see in this last post is "it was sanded down to factory primer", well that isn't down to bare metal.

Then earlier you say that "1/2 inch tape stripe removed , 2 tone edges feathered down. primed ,blocked painted. 1/2 inch stripe shows up." and this makes perfect sense.

But much earlier you said "even the metal under it is effected by the decals."

I am sorry, just trying to understand this.

Brian
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2012, 04:39 PM
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As I posted in the SPI forum, I have no intention to argue with anyone. I appreciate everyone's input and experience. That's why I asked.

Back to the original purpose in this thread... to get to the bottom of the best way to fix this problem. This is not a 1984 paint job nor lacquer. Whether or not the rules still apply as far as sanding to bare metal is something I'm very interested in finding out. Others should be interested too. If I did this every day like some on here do, I'd definitely be interested in saving time if I could.

Rules can change as time progresses and new technology is used. Not saying they have but if they have I'd like to know about it. No sense in sanding to bare metal and cutting into the E-coat if I don't have to. Also, I'd prefer not to have to go courser than 320 if I can avoid it and get away with just scuffing.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2012, 05:19 PM
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At this point a number of opinions have been given and you need to choose your path and get on with it.
Only time will tell if you are right or someone else was.
Continuing to argue the point to death is not productive, and it won't get you the answer you were hoping for.
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Old 02-10-2012, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Fool
At this point a number of opinions have been given and you need to choose your path and get on with it.
Only time will tell if you are right or someone else was.
Continuing to argue the point to death is not productive, and it won't get you the answer you were hoping for.
So far we only have only one actual experience with this issue discussed (Shine's). I am interested in other experience, specifically pertaining to modern finishes.

Someone who works with fleet vehicles would be the person to talk to (i.e. someone who converts retired cop cars to taxis etc).
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2012, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fool
At this point a number of opinions have been given and you need to choose your path and get on with it.
Only time will tell if you are right or someone else was.
Continuing to argue the point to death is not productive, and it won't get you the answer you were hoping for.
Ahhhh, and there lies the fact that a lot of people will fight with, post your opinion and discuss it, unless we are talking the sun comes up in the east and sets in the west most any process can be done a number of different ways. Present your case and there is no argument, no name calling, no BS. The other guy isn't wrong, he simply has another experience. This is the case most of the times there is a peeing match.

In this case, I can see both sides. I know that Shine is right on and that when you are dealing with scratches, tape lines, that sort of thing, strip it to bare metal is ALWAYS recommended by me as well. I just didn't get the "metal changes" thing. I think what it comes down to is sanding the stripe out, ESPECIALLY if you don't cut it to bare metal you are dying for problems because the sanding is removing the surrounding material BEFORE the stripe. So it may SEEM like it is flat and you have sanded the stripe out and you have sanding the stripe OFF, but that doesn't mean that you haven't left more primer UNDER where the stripe was! You have sanded more off the surrounding area so what you have is a "stripe" of higher material where it was!

I am thinking what Shine experienced is the same thing, but at the metal level. But anyway you look at it to remove it to bare metal and then prime it, and block it is going to be the best way to handle it in my opinion as well.

Brian
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