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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 08:29 AM
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Blow by

"If you think it might be the rings, with the pcv out watch for oil smoke coming out of the valve cover. This is called blow by."

Carsavy,,, you made this comment earlier on page 2, what do you mean blow by?? do you means the rings or something else cuz I am getting some of this smoke on my 283.

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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 08:32 AM
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You can determine when the rings are fully sealed by watching compression test results rise and then stablize, this is the point where the change (not necessary) to syn could be made.. NOT BEFORE.

Seen this senario happen 100s of times over last 20-25 years when people use the "best oil" vrs a good breakin oil for fireup and initial ring seating.
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Old 09-23-2008, 08:59 AM
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Thanks for the kind words Danny. I'm curious were this is gonna take me also.

OHD, so should I dump the synthetic oil immediately? And will Non Detergent 30 be okay?...


As far as smoke coming from the PCV hole. I looked closely at this yesterday and there was no smoke coming from the hole.... But is there a visible difference between smoke caused by blow by and just plain ol heat smoke from all the moving parts? Or should there be absolutely no smoke. No even the lightest....
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eatonde
"If you think it might be the rings, with the pcv out watch for oil smoke coming out of the valve cover. This is called blow by."

Carsavy,,, you made this comment earlier on page 2, what do you mean blow by?? do you means the rings or something else cuz I am getting some of this smoke on my 283.
Blow-By; Loss of compression by the piston rings.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin7

Anyhow, shortly after installing the motor into my impala, i had timing issues. For a week straight I messed with it and I just couldn't get it to start.

That isn't good for parts like camshaft lobes, valve stems, rings or anything else that depends on the volume of oil being flung out from the spinning crank at running RPMs or splash from the rockers.

As the others have said, if you broke it in with synthetic oil..

One thing I thought of that may not apply, bronze valve guides don't do well in motors that get built and then not run...(the guy who owns the local machine shop told me that)

Have you tried wiggling the tops of the valves to see if there is noticeable movement? We recently had to pull the top end off of a 5.0 with alum heads/bronze guides that ran beautifully for several thousand miles, then sat for 7 years while the rest of the car was built. Upon startup, it ran ok, then developed some noises in the valve train...some valves were looser than others, but they were all in need of new guides.

EDIT: just saw your last post..
I'd try dumping the syn oil, and running some regular oil...You are not going to mess anything up more than it already is by doing that. It might not help, but you never know unless you try.


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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
That isn't good for parts like camshaft lobes, valve stems, rings or anything else that depends on the volume of oil being flung out from the spinning crank at running RPMs or splash from the rockers.

As the others have said, if you broke it in with synthetic oil..

One thing I thought of that may not apply, bronze valve guides don't do well in motors that get built and then not run...(the guy who owns the local machine shop told me that)

Have you tried wiggling the tops of the valves to see if there is noticeable movement? We recently had to pull the top end off of a 5.0 with alum heads/bronze guides that ran beautifully for several thousand miles, then sat for 7 years while the rest of the car was built. Upon startup, it ran ok, then developed some noises in the valve train...some valves were looser than others, but they were all in need of new guides.

EDIT: just saw your last post..
I'd try dumping the syn oil, and running some regular oil...You are not going to mess anything up more than it already is by doing that. It might not help, but you never know unless you try.


Later, mikey
No I haven't tried wiggling the valves yet. Only thing I noticed is that the valve wasn't closed properly but as Carsavvycook said, it's just the way it ended its stroke.
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin7
As stated in my first post, the engine was bought back in November 06' from a local reputable builder.

He immediately fired it up, and it ran for about 15 min....never once smoked and it sounded strong... I'm trying to think back on it and I don't recall if we ever discussed it being "broken in yet". All I know is that he had rebuilt it. To what extent I am not sure. Idle and oil pressure was great while on the run stand...

The motor sat on an covered engine stand in my garage for a little over a year.

Anyhow, shortly after installing the motor into my impala, i had timing issues. For a week straight I messed with it and I just couldn't get it to start. Finally a friend came by and we were able to find TDC and the car fired right up !...

A few days later is when I finally drove the car on its maiden voyage. I drove it to work for the first time. The trip itself is about 9 miles on city streets each direction. Total drive time about 35 minutes in traffic ranging from 30-40 mph. Car ran really well.

The smell had a very high gas concentration.

That same day I created a post entitled "light blue smoke".... I thought i was running too rich. So I fiddled with the mixture screws. It didn't make any improvements though....

JD Brown asked about the use of synthetic oil. And the honest answer to that is... I figured it was the right move. In my head I figured, well i might as well use the "best stuff". So i dropped in some 5w30 synthetic oil in it after the motor was installed...... There really was no logical reason behind the use of synthetic.....
I shortened up your post a little.

The 15 minute run by the original builder should have been enough to "break-in" the cam provided he had regular non-detergent oil and hopefully a good zinc additive.

The oil and the filter should have been changed immediately after that run.

You do not have enough miles on the engine for the rings to have fully seated. How long this takes is dependent on how the cylinders were honed and what type of rings were installed.

You should not switch to synthetic oil until after you have around 2000-3000 miles on the engine.

You should change the oil and filter on a new engine at 50 miles then again at 100 miles, 500 miles, 1000 miles and then every 3000 miles.

Having the engine sit for a year could possibly have enabled the valve seals to dry out and thus leak. They may need replacing.

Having the engine sit for a year could also have possibly allowed some of the rings to have gotten "stuck". This would allow excessive oil consumption in one or more cylinders and would also possibly be a contributing factor for lower than expected compression. Freeing "stuck" rings can sometimes be accomplished by putting a small amount (a tablespoon) of Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder. Let it soak overnight. Crank the engine over several times without the plugs in to blow the excess oil out. Replace the plugs and start the engine. It will smoke very heavy while burning off any residual Marvel Mystery Oil for a short time. If the ring(s) were not stuck too bad, they should free up.

The plug you show does not indicate any oil fouling and this surprises me due to the large amount of both burned on and wet oil shown in the other photos.

The high level of gas smell could have been due to incorrect carb adjustment as well as the timing being off. Was the choke fully open at the time? Excess gas could have "washed" the cylinders down.

Checking the compression is usually performed with the ignition disabled, the throttle held wide open, and all spark plugs removed.

What are your compression readings for each cylinder?

A simple baffle can be fabricated from a piece of 1/8" thick steel or aluminum plate. Tap the two cast bosses in the valve cover that are located close to the hole in the cover. Use short bolts there to attach the flat baffle.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 11:12 AM
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I think everyone is trying to over anilize this. Before I spent any money or tore into anything, I would change the oil, put stock valve covers on it and run the crap out of it. Running it under load should finish seating the rings and see what happens.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gassman
I think everyone is trying to over anilize this. Before I spent any money or tore into anything, I would change the oil, put stock valve covers on it and run the crap out of it. Running it under load should finish seating the rings and see what happens.
i hope you all you guys that have given me ideas dont take this the wrong way, but I do see eye to eye with Gassman... I'd much rather fix the simple obvious things like the baffle and oil before I rip the heads off.....

How hard is it though for a somewhat mechanically inclined like myself to replace the valve seals? I've never personally tore into a motor before.... The things that i've done this far are all new to me.

I will however continue the compression check on the remaining 6 cylinders to see what the entire motor is running....
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisco
I shortened up your post a little.


Having the engine sit for a year could possibly have enabled the valve seals to dry out and thus leak. They may need replacing.

Having the engine sit for a year could also have possibly allowed some of the rings to have gotten "stuck". This would allow excessive oil consumption in one or more cylinders and would also possibly be a contributing factor for lower than expected compression. Freeing "stuck" rings can sometimes be accomplished by putting a small amount (a tablespoon) of Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder. Let it soak overnight. Crank the engine over several times without the plugs in to blow the excess oil out. Replace the plugs and start the engine. It will smoke very heavy while burning off any residual Marvel Mystery Oil for a short time. If the ring(s) were not stuck too bad, they should free up.

The plug you show does not indicate any oil fouling and this surprises me due to the large amount of both burned on and wet oil shown in the other photos.

The high level of gas smell could have been due to incorrect carb adjustment as well as the timing being off. Was the choke fully open at the time? Excess gas could have "washed" the cylinders down.


A simple baffle can be fabricated from a piece of 1/8" thick steel or aluminum plate. Tap the two cast bosses in the valve cover that are located close to the hole in the cover. Use short bolts there to attach the flat baffle.
What are the odds that only one of the valve seals would have dried out?

Where can i purchase Marvel Mystery Oil ?

So if the plug on the #2 isn't fouled would this narrow it down to a leaky valve seal dripping from obove ?

Yes, the choke was fully open. It's a manual choke Qjet but I have left it open since I do not have the linkage for it yet.

Good tip on making a baffle. Thanks
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 12:10 PM
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I would agree that you should indeed fix the obvious problems first, and put some additional time on the engine (with a petroleum based oil) and then reevaluate. The oil on the stem of the valve could be from EITHER a bad stemseal, or excessive guide clearance, or some of both. Any excessive pressure getting past the rings and pressurizing the upper-end (thru the drainback passages) will only serve to exascerbate that type of an issue. Inspect valveguide clearances (comparitively, and against published specs.) and make repair{s} if needed, and inspect and/or replace valvestem seals as needed (best to do the whole set-it's cheap insurance). Change back to a good petroleum oil with zddp Then...check timing to be certain you're not getting pre-ignition (knock/ping) before continuing with your ongoing accumulation of running-time for seating the rings. (I mention timing/advance due to the fact that if you get too much pre-ignition you can break ring-lands and rings which will guarantee you an oil-drinker with unbalanced cylinder pressures. This I know from unfortunate personal experience on my previous engine) A valvespring compressor will aid you in disassembly, and compressed air to pressurize the cylinder will hold the valve(s) open and keep them from falling down into the cylinder. Thus you CAN do the stemseals w/o pulling the heads, but if it were me I'd pull 'em (the heads) and disassemble all (valve assemblies) for a close inspection and good cleaning-then you'd know for certain where things stand. Too early in the bottom end's life to have cause for concern yet, as not enough time on the engine for those rings to have begun seating yet, and until they do you likely WILL have SOME amount of blowby/pressurization of the crankcase at mid-higher rpm's. Fix the known issues and give that motor a chance to find it's happy place!-So far your issues are not severe enough to let them ruin your day. Just a little bump in the road to provide a scuffed-knuckle learning experience. Good luck and keep everyone informed of your progress.-Jim
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 12:24 PM
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Jim thank you for your suggestions. This will definately be a learning experience for me and hopefully for others as well. I do intend to fix the problem the first time around. Just a little concerned that I might have a hard time doing it alone. Sure I can take it to a shop and get charged an arm and a leg, but then if something like this ever occurs on another project of mine, i'll be resorting on others... I'm always up for a challenge. That's just my nature.

My action plan will be to baffle the valve cover, check compression on all 8 pistons, get rid of the synthetic and go with another type of oil.

What viscosity should I use now?
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 01:02 PM
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I think you'd be fine with a good 10W40. Staying on the lighter side might help to facilitate with the seating of the rings. (Others on here will certainly offer opinions as to favorite/desired wieghts and/or brands, so I'll leave that issue alone from here on.) When you DO get to a respectable mileage/runtime on this engine and decide to thrash it hard on the strip- you can go heavier weight (or for the June-August extreme heat months, as I notice you are in Dallas). Bear in mind that WHILE this ring-seating process will be occuring, it's not unusual to have some usage of oil, and the thinner the weight-the faster it can be used.

Anyways, it's your call as to wether or not to just focus on the one exhaust valve, or do a more complete inspection and replacement procedure, but EITHER WAY- you've got to find out WHY your stem is getting the accumulation on it. It just boils down to how involved you want your inspection and analysis process to be.I mention pulling the heads and disassembling the valvetrain ONLY because of the fact that you will know for SURE what conditions of all valves and guides and supporting hardware are. PS: When you install VC baffle(s)- be very certain to use a good threadlocker and clean thread surfaces to keep screws/bolts from vibrating loose and falling into the valvetrain. Good luck on all aspects.-Jim
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2008, 01:09 PM
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Sin7

There are no superficial cures to the problems your engine are suffering. What you are in need of is professional help, seek out a good machine shop and provide them with an itemized list of the history of the engine. Take the car in and show them first hand what the problem is and ask their advice and an estimate for a cost to cure. If they feel it is just a head problem, then you can remove the heads and have them do the work that's required. If its rings (too) then you can punch out the pistons annd re-ring the engine with their specifications.

The secret is finding someone that you can trust and has the ability to do the work, and explain the reason why its required. Good luck on your endeavours.
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:16 PM
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With the VERY LIMITED runtime on that engine it's really too early to tell if there's any ring problem or not, as they sure as heck haven't seated within such a short runtime as this. Might be worthwhile to TRY putting a set of valveseals on it (If no problems with guide clearances) and run it a while and monitor it's progress. That would be the easyway out, but it all depends on what kind of shape those valveguides and stems are in. Perhaps he could have a GOOD qualified tech. at least do the inspection of valveguides and seals IF he's not comfortable with doing it himself, -but it sounds like to me that he wishes to learn this for himself. Maybe another member who lives close enough to drive over could render him some assistance for a few cold roadpops and an afternoon barbeque, Eh? I think there's a fair amount of registered members in his neck of the woods whom might have enough experience and the willingness to offer up a second set of eyes and hands, as well as prior experience. The option of pulling the heads I mentioned due to the fact that it allows for COMPLETE inspection of valvetrain components as well as a look at the cylinder bores and crosshatch hone. Of course that's much more work, but it would render more information, although it's still possible that one could conceivably achieve a resolution (OR NOT) by going the short route and only doing the valveseals (provided that guide{s} don't have excessive clearance). MANY, MANY OPTIONS HERE... Anybody on here live close enough to Sin7 to take a drive over? -Jim.
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