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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2013, 06:17 AM
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All epoxy does is provide the best seal for metal against rust ,it does not stop or prevent rust if you just spray over it. the rust issue needs to be addressed before using the epoxy the epoxy then seals it all up (like a condom) ... most epoxies do that, what makes SPI so special is its easy to sand and build so theres no need for any other primers...You can go from bare metal all the way to paint using only this one eopxy, with almost all the other epoxies they dont sand well so you need another primer after the epoxy that you can sand easily...the problems with putting another primer over it are the 2 k primers tend to shrink more and get sand scratch swelling and they chip a lot easier like door edges and rock chips on the front of the car. so eliminating the 2k primer and only using epoxy makes a longer lasting and better job....

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2013, 03:19 PM
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Body filler showing through epoxy primer

thank you guys this is a lot of help for me.
arlo
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:21 PM
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Body filler showing through epoxy primer

I know I goof a story and question’s for 69 Widetrack
I am working on my 30 FORD Coup, I want to keep it original, I am just a original Model A FORD guy. Any way it will not be a show car but want it to look kind of nice. At my age I just want to get it done so I can drive it some be for I am to old to dr.. I have had it for years and never got it on road. To many Irons in fire in early years.
I am not up to date on the new primers and paint. Many years ago I patched and use lacquer thinner, primer and acrylic enamel on my own cars. But 69 widetrack I think you have talked me into trying epoxy primer. I was afraid to try the stuff on small panels or just one fender at a time, when I only need a little bit. I figure I would be wasting a lot. I was told you have to through it away in a few hours.
I have a 4.5 hr. peak air compressor from Harbor freight, I know it is not big enough to use air sander, it seems to do ok with L. primer and black enamel that I used on trunk lid, with the Binks 18 gun. It has the regulator that came with it.
What I did, I used my ½ hr drill with 40 and 80 grit. I striped to bear metal on top of coup and sides of top, used course steel wool and Dupont Metal Conditioner where I figure I need to. I mixed 1 part to 2 part water, [ maybe it to old ] the can said to keep wet while working it, I hand dry it good , said nothing about rinsing of , let dry for 10 more min like can said to do, and prime with my L . Primer, sand re prime sand , did this about 2 months ago. Look good , than I strip front fender and did the same , but I guess I had more little pitting here, it seems smooth , I think u call it black rust. I though the metal cond would work as well here too. This has been just a month now and now 4 or 5 spots pop through primer, the size of pencil lead. So now I am thinking about the epoxy primer. I am still concern about all the waste I will have on what epoxy I have left over.
Now I have the car in basement and run the dehumidifier most of the time. The car sat all winter and the fender was bear a long where we mig weld a spot on edge last nov 2012 and it did not get any rust, and no dehumidifier running all winter , furnace keep basement at about 50 this is by Erie, Pa. In spring I put some fiber glass on spot and filler and meal treated and prime. Then got my popping. Fender is staying on car to do work. Oh I wire brushed under side and brush on black Rust-oleum about 1 yr ago. I thought it would help seal also.now 69 w.t. for the question’s-- I am lost on all this new stuff and don’t want to sand blast
What can I use ? u told me metal has to be clean and rust free , without sand blasting what do I use? What about POR 15 I saw a post movie clip ,on it.
or do u have something else in mind? thank you for any help arlo
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abrenn View Post
I know I goof a story and question’s for 69 Widetrack
I am working on my 30 FORD Coup, I want to keep it original, I am just a original Model A FORD guy. Any way it will not be a show car but want it to look kind of nice. At my age I just want to get it done so I can drive it some be for I am to old to dr.. I have had it for years and never got it on road. To many Irons in fire in early years.
I am not up to date on the new primers and paint. Many years ago I patched and use lacquer thinner, primer and acrylic enamel on my own cars. But 69 widetrack I think you have talked me into trying epoxy primer. I was afraid to try the stuff on small panels or just one fender at a time, when I only need a little bit. I figure I would be wasting a lot. I was told you have to through it away in a few hours.
I have a 4.5 hr. peak air compressor from Harbor freight, I know it is not big enough to use air sander, it seems to do ok with L. primer and black enamel that I used on trunk lid, with the Binks 18 gun. It has the regulator that came with it.
What I did, I used my ½ hr drill with 40 and 80 grit. I striped to bear metal on top of coup and sides of top, used course steel wool and Dupont Metal Conditioner where I figure I need to. I mixed 1 part to 2 part water, [ maybe it to old ] the can said to keep wet while working it, I hand dry it good , said nothing about rinsing of , let dry for 10 more min like can said to do, and prime with my L . Primer, sand re prime sand , did this about 2 months ago. Look good , than I strip front fender and did the same , but I guess I had more little pitting here, it seems smooth , I think u call it black rust. I though the metal cond would work as well here too. This has been just a month now and now 4 or 5 spots pop through primer, the size of pencil lead. So now I am thinking about the epoxy primer. I am still concern about all the waste I will have on what epoxy I have left over.
Now I have the car in basement and run the dehumidifier most of the time. The car sat all winter and the fender was bear a long where we mig weld a spot on edge last nov 2012 and it did not get any rust, and no dehumidifier running all winter , furnace keep basement at about 50 this is by Erie, Pa. In spring I put some fiber glass on spot and filler and meal treated and prime. Then got my popping. Fender is staying on car to do work. Oh I wire brushed under side and brush on black Rust-oleum about 1 yr ago. I thought it would help seal also.now 69 w.t. for the question’s-- I am lost on all this new stuff and don’t want to sand blast
What can I use ? u told me metal has to be clean and rust free , without sand blasting what do I use? What about POR 15 I saw a post movie clip ,on it.
or do u have something else in mind? thank you for any help arlo
Well Abrenn, first of all, I love the car...just a great classic and timeless. The situation your in is not at all uncommon. I understand that you aren't familiar with today's Primers. Today Primers are made to seal metal from the outside elements such as moisture. Epoxy Primers are exactly what it sounds like, glue with rust inhibitors in the primer and when it cures, it has a very tight molecule that doesn't allow moisture in...lacquer primer on the other hand is like a sponge, it actually draws moisture in and holds it there and in effect can cause rust to form, even after it's primed. Lacquer paint does have water resistant properties but, the lacquer paint should be applied shortly after the primer has been prepped for paint. With Epoxy Primer you can wait long periods of time before top coating and not worry about rust.

The situation you have now is that you have Lacquer Primer on your car. In order to do a good job, the Lacquer Primer should be removed. This can be done by sanding or by wiping it clean with thinner. If you choose to wipe the primer off, make sure that that the bare metal is cleaned with a quality wax and grease remover...several times to remove the residue left from the the thinner. Once the metal has been brought back to raw steel, you will be able to see where and how much rust you have.

You mentioned that you don't want to sand blast the metal, is there any reason for that? Another way to go is use a product called OSPHO...this is a chemical that will remove rust and it should be neutralized before primer is applied. If you like, I can send you a PM a little later with all the details.

A lot of people like POR 15, I'm not a big fan. The metal needs to be prepared correctly or it will not stick.

You mentioned that you where concerned about waste when using Epoxy Primer...again, I understand, however, there would seem to be a fair amount of waste of lacquer Primer now. If the parts had been sprayed in Epoxy to start off with, there is a good chance that things would have worked out. Epoxy Primer is much superior to Lacquer Primer in every way. It has much more hold out, it has build qualities, it is water resistant, SPI's Epoxy sands very well and can be directly top coated within 7 days without sanding.

The best thing to do if you are concerned about waste is to mix whatever amount of primer you feel you will need. If you have a little left over, put it on the part, if you need a little more, mix more...you won't be sorry when you use Epoxy Primer.

Let me know if you would like more information on OSPHO, send me a Private Message, or even just a short line on this thread and I will get you the information. I'm not sure if that's what your after otherwise I would do it now.

I hope this helps, again, if you need more information about anything involving your car, please feel free, I am always happy to help.

Ray
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Old 08-25-2013, 09:43 PM
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Body filler showing through epoxy primer

Hi Ray
I would like to have u send the info that u talked about. I don't know my way around post that well, or I would have sent it priv. O well, also if u have something on the SPI'S epoxy if not, what is the time u have from the time u mixed until it will set up in gun?
thanks arlo
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2013, 10:03 PM
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ok Ray
I trust what u say about the epoxy primer! So just for talk say, why does any one use the 2k primers than?
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:04 PM
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The great thing about the epoxy--pot life is loooong. Once it's mixed up, it's good for several days. I have gone back 4 days later I think it was, and the epoxy was a lot thicker and didn't spray well, so I pitched it. It's not like a 2k primer or poly primer that sets up in the gun in 30-60 min. Hell there's a 30 minute flash time between coats of epoxy, which means sometimes it may sit in my gun for an hour or more.

So to your concern with epoxy, if you have extra, pour it into a mixing cup and put foil on the top. It's good in there for several days. You can use this time to prep another panel or get something else ready to spray.

I've been pretty good, or lucky, about accurately guessing about how much I need whether it's spraying a single panel or the entire car with epoxy so I usually don't end up with much left over, if any. But it's nice to have several things ready to go at the same time, so once you have sprayed what you really wanted to spray, you can use your leftover to spray on the other panels that are prepped.

The other thing I do is keep a log in the shop where I write down how much I used to spray a certain panel....ie '3 coats epoxy on rear valance, 3 ounces.' Just making numbers up there. Makes it easy to refer back...then I can say well if I used 3 ounces on that, and this new panel I want to spray is roughly about twice as big, I had better mix up about twice as much.

The 2k primers have more mil build than epoxy, sand a little easier, don't require an induction time, and subsequent coats can be shot with much shorter flash times. Basically easier and faster to use. These pro's like to go on and on about using epoxy as a one stop shop for building and filling, I just don't think it's practical advice for an amateur. My panels require a little more help than what any of these guys' will.

People don't like the 2ks because of their tendency for shrinkage which you don't get with epoxy. I can mostly avoid this since I'm also using SPI's 2k which isn't talc-based and uses a different solids substrate that doesn't shrink as as bad. But just to be clear, epoxy and 2k can both be used on the same car...I've been doing 2 coats epoxy on bare metal, do my filler work over that. Then I put another 1-2 coats epoxy over that so the filler can soak it up, and because I've sanded to bare in some spots most likely. Then 2k primer for build and imperfections, block it down, I ended mine with 400 wet, then I went over the entire car once more with epoxy as a 'seal' coat basically to hit any small bare metal spots if I hit an edge or something while sanding, and to give the car a uniform color. Then, because there might be some spots with dust nibs or maybe a little bit of peel, I go 600 wet over the final epoxy coat before base.

Last edited by Lizer; 08-25-2013 at 10:19 PM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2013, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abrenn View Post
Hi Ray
I would like to have u send the info that u talked about. I don't know my way around post that well, or I would have sent it priv. O well, also if u have something on the SPI'S epoxy if not, what is the time u have from the time u mixed until it will set up in gun?
thanks arlo

Here is the tech manual for SPI products. You won't be disappointed in their products. We have used most, if not all, of the comparable products from the major manufactures and SPI products are more user friendly, more cost effective, and I feel they are better quality as well. The customer service is unsurpassed, help and information is only a phone call away.

Look here: http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/TechManual.pdf

Kelly
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Old 08-26-2013, 07:53 AM
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Hello Arlo

I actually did send you information on OSPHO and on SPI Epoxy Primer in a Private Message about 30 minutes after my last post to you. If you didn't get it, I will resend the information. Lizer did explain the difference between Epoxy and 2K Primer. Never apply 2K primer over bare metal, it doesn't have the corrosion resistant qualities that an Epoxy primer does. A good 2K primer is great for achieving build but, somewhat like lacquer primer, it's porous and allows moisture to penetrate through the metal and rust to form underneath. A good route to take is to apply two coats of Epoxy Primer, allow proper flash times and the 2K primer over top...now you have the rust resistance of Epoxy and the build of 2K primer.

2K primers can shrink...if they aren't used properly but, when used properly, with the right amount of time between coats they are an excellent product.

I will resend the information, let me know if you get it, if not we will figure out another way to help you.

Ray
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:19 PM
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Yes thank you. I type up a big reply and just as I tried to send it I got knock of line, to late to re type it all now . thanks again
arlo
abrenn39@gmail.com
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