[adtkart]

I have been on this board off and on for 4 years. I do not make it a habit of telling people of my accomplishments. There are ones that know a whole lot more about a whole more things than me. I have done alot in my life, and look forward to learning even more everyday.

There are some very talented people that come here, and I take advantage of that, in order for me to learn. There is no one here that knows everything about anything. You can be assured that there are some that know considerably more than you do though.

To make a comment like:

"You must be a sales rep!!!!

And I doubt you have it in you to show me much!!

Specially about the "right way". You don't know me from Adam! If you did you certainly would not have said that!!!

Stick to pushing your SPI!
Don't screw with me about proper methods!"

to a person that, not only knows how to paint, but also manufactures the stuff, is really pushing it. He doesn't come here and say, "I make paint and know everything about it". He comes and offers honest advise for anyone that needs it, no matter what brand product they are using.

As far as the epoxy and filler deal, do it however you want. I am not aware of the window for the other brands, but with SPI, you have 7 days. I do not use much filler, but have tried it on the epoxy. To make sure, before I did it on a customer's car, I did a small test panel. Even without waiting for the epoxy to fully cure (7days), I had to break up the filler, by chipping it, to get it off. I actually destroyed the test panel trying to remove the filler. That was without sanding the epoxy. I don't do any sanding that isn't necessary. I learned a long time ago to "work smarter, not harder".

I'm here to learn. If you want to stick around and learn some stuff, that's up to you. If you still think you know it all, good luck.

Aaron

[kenseth17]

No problem color, I agree with what you say the majority of the time. But its bad news if someone starts boasting. Its great to be confident in your work, and I see why you wanted to defend yourself after the backlash. Yes I've seen it before, in fact a heck of a lot worst. Some may remember paint tech instructor, this ain't nothing. The problem with paint tech instructor was he didn't know his arse from a hole in the ground but was constantly saying he was the best (if you could read his jibberish). I've gotten beat up on things a few times, mainly when I first joined, just like a lot of others have at times, so don't take it too hard. Just remain somewhat humble, give the best advice you can, and realize everyone isn't going to agree with you all the time, and you'll be okay.
The infamous paint tech instructors profile- find all posts.
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/memb...nstructor.html

[colormecrazy]

Thanks!

Advise certainly taken.

I'll be the first to say that I don't know it all. And I'm not the best. I too see this as a give and take relationship. Thanks again!

I'm sure that Barry knows thing that I don't. And I'll always appreciate every angle. That just makes me get better too. If I stop learning in such a developing industry I'll be screwed.

[Centerline]

Just wanted to tell you guys that you're doing a fine job of respecting everyone else on the board. Been watching this thread just to make sure it stayed civil and it has. Good going to all of you.

[BarryK]

KOOL! I'm just trying to make it understood that I have painted since '88. And it has been a long learning curve already for me. I've gained alot of quality oriented experience. I don't think that I should be dogged for saying sand the darn epoxy before you glaze it. Once again I ask is sanding it "wrong"?
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First in the nicest way I can, I know painters that have painted 40 years that are not worth a crap and I know a painter that is six months out of tech school that is one of the best.
So save the resume, If you were as good as you say someone here would have seen you in hotrod or judged your car as there are some real talent on here that keep to them selves as a matter of fact I have talked to a lot of them on the phone that hardly ever post and it turns out one of them I knew well from Barrett Jackson.

To answer your question:
Epoxy adhesion is maximized with mils. One coat of most epoxies do OK and two-three will do the best for adhesion and corrosion protection depending on the brand, how its made and the viscosity.
All epoxies are not the same and there are many ways and resins to formulate an epoxy.
Most painters unless using epoxy as a sealer apply two coats no matter what brand they use and here again this can be borderline as too maximum protection.

So sanding is perhaps and maybe not weakening the protection of the epoxy but it depends on how applied and what kind brand it is.

Be that as it may.
I have done many adhesion tests with epoxy and it is an on going process so much so we now have two adhesion testers in stead of just one and I can tell you this.
Epoxy inside of its open coat window when sanded with 180 by hand (not a DA) Duraglass, Dynaglass, tigerhair, longnstrong as well as body fillers and metal to metal, allmetal, dolphin glaze, icing, eurocoat neither gain or lose adhesion by sanding the epoxy first VS applying over unsanded epoxy.

So why waste sandpaper and chance your losing adhesion and corrosion protection by sanding the epoxy?

We have no problem with how you want to do yours.

[colormecrazy]

Thanks Barry!

But, remember, that is still your opinion. However educated it may be.

My other question still stands. Is adhesion helped by applying more epoxy over the glaze, when body-work is finished? In your opinion?

Did not mean to be so aggressive Barry.
I've done several cars in the method I described, and to hear, I did it wrong and did not know what I was talking about, questions the integrity of my work. That got me a bit defensive. My bad!

If it is OK with everyone, I'll keep sanding it. I guess if it ain't broke don't fix it? Goes for lots of stuff, If it works for you, you do it, right!

I'd love for you to stop by. If you get the chance. You'll be greeted with a smile and a good firm hand shake. It would be nice to meet you. You appear to be a legend among those around us here. And as you may have gathered I do love to show off.

[BarryK]

My other question still stands. Is adhesion helped by applying more epoxy over the glaze, when body-work is finished? In your opinion?
==========================================

Always! It could be one of the best steps taken for sealing and durability of the finale job.

[colormecrazy]

So we agree!!! on something!

WOO HOO!

Have a good one Barry!

[BarryK]

Here is something you might find interesting.

Through my own testing I have always stated that when you are done blocking primer if you use epoxy as a sealer it will increase the durability of the base and clear about 35%.

Well guess I was wrong!
One of my guys went to a chemical engineering class for a week a few weeks back and the one professor was really into automotive coatings and this is very unusual today as latex and UV and powder seems to be the only thing out there as far as advanced classes or job openings.

When it was brought up about our testing the professor stated that we were wrong and other tests show that the durability increase is closer to the 50% range.

This is one time I'm happy to be wrong where he got this info I have no idea
and will continue to say 35% as I know that for fact but its always good to know you may be being to conservative.

[colormecrazy]

Kool!

[Boogs]

Originally Posted by adtkart

The only thing that I know about being "old fashioned" is from the times I started doing body work, in high school, about the time you guys were born, we used to work the metal where we didn't have to put all of that filler in it. Body fillers were never applied over any paint. Metal was ground rough, and usually had holes drilled in it for the filler that was added to bite into. Since then, I have tried to keep up with the technology and the advantages that have come up. Now, with the use of Epoxy primers, if done within the window, filler can be applied over it, and sanding is not necessary. Since this is a chemical bond, it should be stronger than the slight mechanical bond that you would get from sanding. If it isn't necessary to sand before the next step, it saves me work.

Aaron

So let me get this straight. Applying A filler over A cured smooth surface is stronger than applying to A scuffed surface? Skipping A step to save time dosent say too much about quality and may cause someone else problems and possibly wasted money down the line.

[kenseth17]

Applying A filler over A cured smooth surface is stronger than applying to A scuffed surface?

You misread it. Eposy takes a while to fully cure. We are not talking fully cured epoxy. It was stated applying the filler within the epoxy's time window without sanding, once out of that window, then it should be scuffed. The window to apply can be up to a week or so. Check the epoxy you are using for the window time. If you scrape on epoxy the next day it with a fingernail it can still seem somewhat soft, like it is not adhereing well. Not the case It hasn't fully cured yet. In fact the pot life on epoxy is a pretty long time compared to other 2k products.

[gator412]

So Barry do I follow you correctly.. I understood you to say that after my body work is done and final blocking is complete if I spray an epoxy primer over it all it will help the BC/CC? And the epoxy primer would be the same that I spray on bare metal? I am new to all this and taking body work classes (remember you helped me ask some questions to the paint store owner) so I am just trying learn some more. Also can I put filler over 2K?

[BarryK]

Originally Posted by gator412

So Barry do I follow you correctly.. I understood you to say that after my body work is done and final blocking is complete if I spray an epoxy primer over it all it will help the BC/CC? And the epoxy primer would be the same that I spray on bare metal? I am new to all this and taking body work classes (remember you helped me ask some questions to the paint store owner) so I am just trying learn some more. Also can I put filler over 2K?

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Yes the same epoxy but you activate it and then reduce it 10-30% and let induce for 10-30 minutes and spray one coat.

Filler over 2K?
I have seen shops do this for years but only for small missed blemishes after the 2K sets up they will apply glazing putty over the 2K to fix an imperfection they missed.
I have done it a couple of times myself I'm embarrassed to say, yes it will work but not the ideal way.

[adtkart]

Originally Posted by Boogs

So let me get this straight. Applying A filler over A cured smooth surface is stronger than applying to A scuffed surface? Skipping A step to save time dosent say too much about quality and may cause someone else problems and possibly wasted money down the line.

As Kenseth said the epoxy is not cured when the filler is added, if not sanded. If the epoxy is cured, yes it should be sanded.

That says absolutely nothing about the quality of the work. It is how the stuff is supposed to work! Many years ago, we used to have to drill holes in panels before any filler was added. The holes were to aid in keeping the filler "attached" to the metal. We no longer do that, but that doesn't mean that we are cutting corners.

There are many cases in life where things have changed that save work. Simply bedause you are saving work does not mean that you are cutting corners. It is saving UNNECESSARY work!

IF YOU FEEL THAT YOU NEED TO SAND IT, GO FOR IT!

Aaron