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View Poll Results: Bondo or Lead?!
Bondo cause I suck and don't realize the superiority of leading. 21 70.00%
Lead, cause I rock and know what's up! 9 30.00%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2005, 07:25 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Randy, I obviously have not made my self clear, sorry. Of course the "standard of the collision industry" is not what you are talking about. You are talking about rising above that "standard".

My point is the "standard" isn't so bad. It isn't like the "standard" is a "Macco" paint job. When one of my customers comes to pick up his $50,000 2004 Lexus LS430 after collision repair has been done, he is looking at it pretty close. When we weld on a quarter and replace corrosion protection, repair the structure using a $30,000 measureing system we are repairing to "industry standards". The "industry standard" is well above what would be considered "inferior" by just about anyone.

Out in your garage building a street rod or valuable classic, by all means that should be done in the highest quality one can do it.

That '68 Camaro, I rather see the owner use some filler and be out on the road with his smiling face behind the wheel. If the guy has any desire to do more than that, he will do it be damned what I have to say.

Brian

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2005, 07:55 PM
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I have to agree with Brian (Martinsr) on this one. On my project cars, like the ones that I work on at the shop, I use as little filler as I can. On my project cars, the customer is not as concerned about how long it takes. That does allow me to use almost no filler in many cases, where I would use some at work. Then again, the cars at work are very likely going right out on the road to be targets again, and will be back with a similar story that brought them in in the first place. Some don't even stay gone long enough to get dirty, except what happened in the accident. Even had one a few months ago that didn't make it home before it was wrecked again.

With the fillers in use today, there are not the problems that there were in the past, as long as they are used properly. Also it is hard enough to get the customers and insurance companies to pay a reasonable price to fix them as it is. I can imagine trying to get them to pay to fix them without any filler.
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Old 04-02-2005, 09:34 PM
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All I know is I don't have any failures doing my work the way I do, no unsatisfied customers, my schedual is always booked a year in advance. I've looked at examples of my work after 15 plus years with no failures. I do use plastic fillers and sometimes body solder on areas where it is needed.

Use what you feel comfortable with per the product's instructions. Try to improve your metalworking skills if you feel you're pushing the limits of plastic filler. There are some areas of a car that can't be metalfinished, and also some areas where solder isn't practical. IMO
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2005, 09:34 PM
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OH!!! Pardon me.
I thought we were on the hotrodders forum, where the focus is on vintage automobiles, hot rods of the 20's-40's, custom cars, muscle cars, etc. with some real collector value.

Since we're talking late model garbage with little or no collector value.... ever, then by all means, mud up those over-priced pieces of crap!!!!

Randy
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2005, 11:14 AM
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I really like to do the best that I can, given the time, money, vehicle condition, my current skill level, etc, and then get the car done. These days, the best that I can do is a lot better than it was.

There is nothing like finding yourself able to do high quality metal work after years of struggle to learn how. These days it is easier than ever to find the information that you need to develop the skills required.

However, there are perfectly acceptable alternatives to perfect metal work. I never trash someone else's work, because I may have been there once upon a time. I don't really care too much how someone gets their car done. The fact that they are being creative and interested enough to do something different is enough for me.

I do spend a lot of time telling people about what I think are good metal working techniques in an effort to encourage high quality work, but I must try very hard not be be disappointed when my advice isn't taken. There are very few people who will take the time to learn about metalshaping and metal-finishing. They can still build nice cars.

Randy, You are a bit like a musician who has learned an extraordinary amount in a relatively short time, perhaps forgetting that not all musicians are that talented and must struggle more than you do to learn. You and Brian have both offered a lot to the car community...no need for friction...unless we are shrinking sheet metal (insert smily emoticon).

John www.ghiaspecialties.com
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2005, 11:39 AM
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John, I have a little twist to your "musician" analogy. To tie in with my "I rather see the guy out on the road with a smiling face" analogy.

My oldest son (23) is a very talented guitarist. I mean, VERY talented. Since he was about 12 he has picked up melodies in a few seconds. He would play along with commercials, sound out whole songs lead and all. The more complex the better, he plays blues like Stevie Ray Vaughan, metal like Kirk Hammet (He can play EVERY Metallica solo at will) he is really something. One problem, no one knows it but his friends. Out side of a talent contest at a county fair he has never played for a crowd.

I on the other hand can just strum, a couple of simple melody lines when it is vital, that is it. But I can, and have many times walked up to a band at a bar, cruise ship, company party, or what have you, and asked to play. I can grab a guitar and tell the band "Little sister in E, one, two, three, four," and rock. And don't picture that guy who always gets up and can't carry a tune in a bucket. I took some vocal lessons and I do a pretty darn respectable job, a nice bondo job.

I have FUN, I have grabbed a guitar and sung my wife a love song on our anniversary (totally unplanned) I have looked out over a full dance floor with others enjoying it as well. I have really had a ball, but less than perfect. My son is a "master metal man" who may be enjoying himself, but I know he would love to get up on stage, he is just hung up on being perfect.

Oh, and by the way, I have had many award winning cars as well, all with "bondo".

A totally metal finished car, it is a work of art, and a damn shame to prime it! I agree, but I enjoy mine as well.

Randy, one thing for sure, I am not disagreeing with you, please understand I am just "speaking for" the guys who can't or won't learn the art of metal finishing. I'll bet, I'll just bet, there is someone who after reading this thread said, "damn it, I am going to see how easy it is, Randy keeps saying how easy it is, I am going to see". He is going to read your instruction and go and do it. That is pretty cool, because you are right. But not everyone will do that.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 04-03-2005 at 09:49 PM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2005, 05:11 PM
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If I was building the ultimate machine for show, I would hire the best guy to do the job. However I am just a regular guy on a budget, that wants to build a NICE 52 chevy pick-up (67 camaro was the first project). Thanks to the internet and the ability to get input from guys like Randy Ferguson, MartinSR and John Kelly(thanks for the shrinking disc). I am now loaded with more knowledge in doing bodywork. I take what information is put out, I may use it exactly or modify to my budget. I am the guy that is using the mollasses trick with a booster phosphoric acid, to do rust removal. The main idea came from the "The secrets of surface rust removal" plus several google searchs. Botom line... no rust and no damage to metal. I will be using purchased relacement panels, however I have made some minor patch areas and welded in (thanks randy). So keep the heated debates going....just don't get pissed and stop......until I get the 52 done.....(joking)........Blaster
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2005, 06:53 PM
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I recently did some hammer-welded repairs on a Shelby. All the metal work was just a grin to look at. Too bad it woulda rusted. Had it ever so close to perfect, yes, perfect. Took a lil bit of Metalglaze poly putty to put the final "ting" to it and went on to priming/finishing. Did this in 8 different spots. 5 of them took just the smallest amout of glaze. Went really fast too. On the other side of the wall was a jerknob doing the cave and pave with some patchwork here and there. These were customer cars. Not the regular prototype crash stuff. He spent more time on one panel with booger welds and mud than I spent on one whole side. A fridge magnet sticks to my work with ease. It looks like it was always there, never damaged. Any one of our projects can benefit from what all of us pros have to say. Randy is right on. While it's a hotrod board tho, restoration is key to final look and smiles per gallon when done.

Martin's right too. There's a time and place for it. In a collision shop I'd surely "pick my spots" regarding metalfinished panels. If a collision shop tech turns in 40 hrs for 40 hrs actual time he surely LOST HIS ***!! To a small, very small degree, that too applies to restoration. If I had the finest gourmet hot dogs in the world and had to get $7.95 for one, I don't think I'd sell many. Now for $2.25 maybe I'd sell more even in a $1.50 market. The point is there may be a way to do the finest all metal, all lead craftsmanship for a client. Prolly the small handfull that graces the fields at Pebble Beach and Meadowbrook. There's an army of lesser monnied hotrodders out there that simply want the longest value per $. And wether I, Martin, or Randy like it, truth is filler is a necessary evil. Rolls Royce used filler on their aluminum bodies. They brushed it on heavy...layed there like old gyptal or rustoleum. A heavy thick coat of what could be seen as primer, but in all reality was like early bondo. RR had some of the finest panel beaters build bodies for them. Even they needed fillers. Ok I'm done fer now.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2005, 08:24 AM
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I agree that good metal work is the key but every body shop I spoke with said the same. The new plastic fillers are as as good as it gets. Again just because some do it wrong does not make the product bad, I have seen crappy welds that broke and warpped and that is how most newbies do it but no one here is saying welding is bad because most do it wrong. When used right plastic filler is great stuff, heck it's on every new car made and even $100,000 custom motorcycles have been skim coated to get a flawless finish.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2005, 09:50 AM
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Hi Brian,

Very cool about your son. I've been playing guitar for almost 40 years...met a few prodigies along the way....one 12 year old when I visited Mesa AZ was playing better than a lot of adult pros I've seen. He has his own CDs out...wish I could remember his name.

Hi Daimon1054,

I have to admit I cringe at the amount of filler used when I watch some of the bike builder shows...of course when you have artificial deadlines...a lot of those guys are talented, but it would be nice if they spent more time learning how to really use the nice sheet metal tools in their shops than performing for the camera.....my wife is sick of me yelling at the TV...

John www.ghiaspecialties.com
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Old 04-04-2005, 10:49 AM
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LOL I agree there are a few that lump it on but a most skim then sand everything off. I was at a shop a while back and they skimed every surface then sands back to primer, there is very little left when done but I was surprised at how many places that looked perfect were a little low even after filler primer and such.
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Old 04-04-2005, 06:10 PM
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I probably shoud post a new thread, but since it was mention by people that have been a member of this board longer than I.....Could ya'll provide a little more detail on this SKIM COATING is there a special product for this. I have exhausted my metal working skills/tools and feel that I have the fenders in best shape I can do(no plastic stuff shoud be thicker than 1/8). I am using Metal Fill(RPM product) for any imperfections leftover, epoxy DPLf primer(ppg) and will use K36 primer surfacer before blocking. Any INPUT would be greatly appreciated and welcomed......Thanks....Blaster
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2005, 08:28 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Blaster, not only should no filler be an eighth inch thick, it shouldn't be anywhere near that. It will be ok, not the end of the world but if you put a metal "straight edge" over it hopefully it will be less. That would be a MAX in a very small area. A 1/16" is more like it. Now, a skim coat usually ends up being far less than that. With a few spots within the repair being that 1/16", the remainder is literally transparent it is so thin.

Note: Buy yourself a metal yard stick, you can lay it on a panel and it will flex with the panel but provide a "staight edge" over the panel, get it?

"Polyester puttys" are what you want to use for super nice skim coats. You could use "regular" plastic filler, either out of the can, or thinned with "Honey" (availible from Evercoat). But the Polyester putties are the way to go. Evercoat makes a number of them, Metal Glaze, Glaze Coat, Easy Sand, Spot-Lite, "Polyester glazing putty", 3M markets some like Premium Polyester finishing putty, Piranha, Flowable finishing putty, there are MANY many more out there. You want a 2K (it uses a hardener) POLYESTER putty.

I personally use Glaze Coat.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 04-05-2005 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 04-05-2005, 12:21 AM
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its got its uses,

semi structural,seams I guess. The other guys pretty much said it. Old technology, we dont paint with a brush and color sand with kerosene anymore either.
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Old 04-17-2005, 11:03 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Why the heck does this keep bumping up? The discussion is obviously dead.

Brian
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