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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2005, 07:03 AM
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hummm well I never seen one for a old torque tube setup, altho It seams to me I seen an article somewhere on converting these to work with torque tube axles...

Leo

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2005, 11:30 AM
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Ya, There's a guy at the Wichita swap meet every year, that converts the model A torque tubes, with them.
I thought about trying to put a governor back on, and rewire, for semi automatic use, but I figured 1 or 2 good "under load" downshifts would be the end of it. Besides, the gear ratio seems to be fairly close the The TH400, so it isn't really like a splitter, more like an additional gear. 1st-over, is slightly lower than 2nd, and 2nd-over is slightly lower than 3rd, but you lose most of the difference, when shifting.
I think a 20% unit would be great for a splitter and overdrive.
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Old 03-15-2005, 08:31 PM
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yeah.... hey, have you ever converted a saginaw 3 speed OD to a 4 speed OD?
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:35 AM
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Never actually seen one, but have seen articles. Looks like a fairly straight forward deal, if you have decent mechanical skills.

As I recall, you use the 3-speed mainshaft, in the 4-speed case. The only real machine work, is drilling the 4-speed case, for the reverse lockout pin. And shortening the driveshaft, of course.

I'd think it would be just the thing, for a roadster, or bucket. With the 30% overdrive, and a wide ratio(3.50 1st), you could put in a 4.11 rear gear, and still
bop right down the interstate. Plus have an awesome off line capability.

In the ramp truck, with 245-75R16 tires, it cut from 3250@65, to 2400@65.
I'll tell you in a few months, if it will hold up to a 402/TH400, in a 1-ton ramp truck.
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Old 03-18-2005, 05:19 PM
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Saturday's the day.....

Have to pickup up a Ferd F150, and haul it over the the junkyard, in the next town over. We'll see how the O/D holds up under a load. After that, we have to run into town and grab a couple more, and go back to the junkyard.

Might get a real workout, if I end up double loading it. It came with a lift bar attachment for the back, which I converted to a mini-sling.

Maybe I oughta tie the old driveshaft up in the frame, in case something comes apart.

The way it is now, all I need to swap it out, is 3 wrenches, 7/16", 5/8", and 11/16", and the whole thing drops out.
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Old 03-19-2005, 12:55 AM
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cool, keep us posted!
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Old 03-19-2005, 06:12 PM
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Today's Results

Other than a slight vibration around 65-70, I can say that I absolutely love this overdrive unit. Think I may need to balance my patchwork driveshaft.

Hauled a total of six vehicles today, double loaded twice.

1. Ford f-150, 12miles to the yard. O/D all the way.

2. Chevy 1/2t 4x4(4 flat tires), AND a Chrysler New Yorker, 16 miles round trip. O/D unloaded only.

3. Late 60's Ford sedan(4 flat tires), AND a Chrysler K-car, 20 miles round trip. O/D 10 miles unloaded,3 miles loaded. Pulled like a champ.

4. Mid 60's Pontiac Catalina(4 flat tires), 20 miles round trip. O/D full trip.

5. 12 miles home. O/D all they way. 65-70 mph.

Needless to say, the old 12v Ramsey 8k winch is gasping for air, but still has a pulse.

Worked it hard, all afternoon, and used 1/2 of a 20 gallon tank of gas. I'd say 8 mpg average, with a lot of high idle time (to keep up with the winch), is doing pretty well, for a ton pickup, with a 402, and TH400.

Tomorrow, I'm going to check the oil level, and re-route the vent tube. It is still spitting, when going down the highway.

Someday soon, I'll probably be making a run to Geneva, NE, to pick up 2 Model A sedans. Hauling one on the truck, and the other on a car trailer. That run will be 275 miles, round trip.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2005, 08:54 AM
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I have some knowledge of these units. There is only ONE basic unit, all are 30% overdrive. The only difference between R-10 units for each manufacturer is the 1-1.5" think adapter between the trans and OD and sometimes the output shaft splines, though all I know of are the same.

There is only one thing I see "wrong" with your application. The planetary gears are rather fragile until fully engaged. All factory systems momentarily ground out the coil (effectively turning off the ignition) when disengaging OD. This is CRITICAL! I had one mounted behind an EFI engine and decided the electronics might not like grounding the coil, so I wired a relay into the ignition wire. The kick down switch momentarily cut the ignition (faster than you can turn it off and on, but similar in concept -- maybe two cylinder firings at the most). That is just enough to take the load off the input and keep the unit from binding inside. If it binds to much the shaft one or more of the planetary gears ride on will break and the OD unit will jam. Luckily this doesn't leave you stranded, it just jams the unit in direct drive as if the lock-out handle is pulled.

One more thing, these units automatically go into OD once 25-30 mph is reached. The goevernor is nothing but a rotating weight that trips a set of contacts to complete the circuit and allow the solenoid to engage OD. I suspect you are using a simple switch to energize the solenoid when you want to. That's fine, there is nothing wrong with doing that and splitting gears in second and third, but 2 and 3 are so close together in a normal three speed trans that 2 + OD is about the same as third. It would be worse with a four speed -- 2 + OD would be a little between 3 and 4, which would make for some fancy shifting! The unit was intended to just be a high gear, though AMC did make a three speed trans with wide 2 to 3 spacing so it could be shifted as a five speed for a few years. Not a very fast shifter though (they called it "Twin Stick" because the lock-out was on a short shift lever beside the three speed floor shifter insted of a cable under the dash). But you HAVE to either clutch the trans coming out of OD or install some sort of ignition cut-out in the kick-down switch!! I wired one up sort of like I think ou did, just a switch for power to the solenoid. It worked fine for a while, then one day it bound up and popped a planetary shaft. This was in a little 61 Rambler Americna (2600-2700 pound car) with a 90 hp (gross hp!) flat head six!! The same unit is used behind 390 Ford big blocks.

You could have a problem with the auto shift with a big engine. A friend of my dad's used to race a 50 Ford with a 312 T-bird engine (built!) and three speed with OD. He told me about breaking the OD on numerous occasions, usually out drinking and street racing. When OD is engaged but you aren't in OD yet, there is a chance of applying to much power as the gears are engaging. Basically he was taking off just cruising, just at the OD engaging speed when someone pulled up and gunned it. If he forgot about OD not being locked out he'd let off the gas slightly then floor it. Well, when he let off the gas (either on purpose or by mistake) and suddnely floored it the car took off, usually with a big BOOM under the floor from the planetary shaft busting!! Yep, sounds like a shot run going off under the floor when that happens, scared the crap out of me the only time I had it happen! I was crusing in OD when the shaft in mine let loose, it had weakened from all the driving I'd been doing I guess.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2005, 08:27 PM
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Farna,
Thanks for all the good info. I'm not runing the governor on mine, so it never auto-shifts. I shift it just as I would a 2-speed truck axle, allowing slack time, for things to move properly. I figure that the TH400 is a lot easier on it, than if I was banging it and out, behind a 4-speed.

Actually, a lot of the time, I just leave it in overdrive, unless I'm going to back up. It makes the truck function much better, even around town. The low rear gears, with direct are great for getting it rolling, and the overdrive makes it much nicer, down the road.

I was surprised, and a little dissapointed, that 2nd and 3rd were so close together. I shouldn't have been, but I didn't actually figure the lower gear ratios, until I found the mentioned effect. Part of my reasoning for this project was the ability to drop half a gear, if I pulled into a hill.

It still makes a world of difference on the driveability of the truck. My only concern is the amount of load, on such a small unit, with that limited amout of lube, for heat disipation. After having replaced the defective seal, and re-routing the vent, I am no longer losing fluid.

Any thoughts on the fluid volume vs heat vs distance driven? I'm running synthetic 75w90 right now. The way I enclosed the front, it holds less than a quart. Adding capacity would be a substantial challenge, without totally changing my additions to the original unit.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2005, 09:11 AM
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The units were usually connected in such a way that they shared lube with the tranny. All the gears churning would heat that up too, so you should be fine. When locked out of Od there is only two bearings turning. When in OD the planetary gears are moving around their shafts and inside the drum. Just that little bit of oil should be fine. You could easily rig a convection circulating external tank. Drill a hole in your front cover right above the high fluid mark with the trans cold, and another around the 1/4 full mark. Connect hoses to a small tank... I think it should be at the same level as the unit. As the fluid heats up it would run into the reservoir and cooler oil would be drawn in from the lower tube. But I don't think it's necessary.

Just be careful cutting out of OD! As fas as I know the unit should be fine running in OD all the time, just don't pop the clutch and do any burn outs with it unless locked out! I'd also cut OD off if pulling a heavy load, at least for takeoff. If you run across another unit you might want to pick it up, even if it's from a different make. The planetary set should be the same, as well as the output shaft (though the splines could be different, I don't think so -- should be the same as Borg Warner T-10 output/yoke, also used on large three speeds and the bigger BW auto trannys). The input splines will be different though. If it goes the planetary set and output shaft (drum is made onto the shaft) will be trashed.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2005, 12:08 PM
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I've got 1 complete SM318 O/D, at my shop. Seems like every other brother's buddy had one of these, until I started looking for one.
I'd love to have a few more. At least one friend of mine wants me to build a conversion for him.
Guess I'm a cheapo, but I can't see giving over $100 for something I'm going to cut up, and throw the big half away.
I passed on one that I should have pounced on. There was a Saginaw 3+O/D, on eBay last week. I think it went for $125.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2005, 11:16 PM
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yeah I know what ya mean.. I passed one up at a swap meet this last weekend for 50 dollars... I am so cheap.... lol you should go to swap meets to look for them trannys tho, I musta seen 6 or more of them old OD's their! no saginaws tho, most were the old chevy units, and their were a few ford ones...

-Leo-
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2005, 06:54 AM
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Leo,
The only problem, is that there are no really good swap meets around here, close. The best one I attend, is the Sunflower A's Swap Meet, at the Kansas Coliseum in Wichita. That is a 190 mile trip. The last 3 years, I've been there, and so far, the only one I could have bought right, is the one under my ramp truck.

I've been scouring eBay, and found some that were reasonable, until you add shipping. I don't have to tell you what it costs to ship a 125lb transmission.
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Old 12-19-2005, 12:21 PM
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R10 Overdrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by packratwrecker
Who's the authority on the old B-W R10's, that were used by nearly everyone(at some point), from the 30's, to the 60's?
I'm using one, as an auxiliary, behind a TH400, and having some seal issues.

I'd like to chat at someone that's familiar with the guts of these things.

I haven't been on for a while, but I'll be checking back, to see if there is anyone around with thoughts.
I'm new to this forum, so I don't know if you got a good reply to this post. I have a R10 sectioned to the torpedo tube of my 1940 ford coupe. It was never installed right so I am wondering if you got any good feed back.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2005, 12:23 PM
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Did you read all the previous messages GSHOOLEY? Go back and do so, you'll find that there was some good info posted (mostly by me, but not all). Not trying to bust your chops, meant above in a friendly manner!

Because of the possibility of blowing out the planetray gears, seal issues, and reverse problem (can't backup if in OD), I wouldn't use one. Instead, I'd get a beefy old three speed tranny and mount THAT behind the transmission. Remove first and reverse gears from the trans so there is only 2nd and 3rd. You'll need to cut the input shaft of the tranny down and make a slip coupling between the output of the original trans and the cut down input of the second trans. In 3rd (direct drive) everything is as normal. When in 2nd, you have a lower range.

So how does this replace an OD? Change the rear axle to a high gear. Instead of running a 3.73 or 4.11 gear, run a 2.50-3.08. You may need to put the second trans in 2nd gear to take off, then shift to third for driving. For short trips just leave in third. Shifting the second trans is easy -- either use a solenoid and electric switch, or use a heavy duty choke cable. Pull for one gear, push for the other. Just don't shift whith your foot on the gas, vehicle should be "coasting" with no "bind" on the trans at all -- accelerating or braking. Would be a great for a street/strip car! For a 4x4, leave first and reverse. Both trannys in reverse would make an ultra low granny gear!

Shifting gets complicated if both shift levers are used though. You want to remove first and reverse to prevent accidentally slipping into those gears for one thing, to reduce drag inside the trans for another. Leaving in first/reverse could get you in trouble, and you'd have to mess with two cables (one in neutral, the other in gear) or figure something more complicated out.

Last edited by farna; 12-20-2005 at 12:34 PM.
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