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Old 11-28-2005, 05:34 PM
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Borg Warner Shifting problems

I originally posted this on an AMC board but someone told me I may find the answers here, hopefully someone can help. I have an unusual problem that I having trouble figuring out. Let me first tell you the set up I have, it is a 1970 AMC 360 hooked up to a 1969 borg/warner 4spd trans. I recently had the trans out of the car and it needed a new clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing and pilot bushing. The problem started when I went to find a clutch kit with the same dimensions so I bought a 3spd clutch kit because the clutch and pressure plate were the right measurments. All the 4spd clutch kits measured only 10" were my clutch was cloose to 11". This was my mistake because the throwout bearing was not the right size so I had to buy a 4spd throwout bearing anyway. Everything else seemed to fit so I put it back together but now when the motor is running I can't put it into gear even when I tigheten the clutch all the way. I can run it through the gears fine when the motor is off. Also when I start in gear with the clutch in it makes a scraping sound but when I start it in reverse with the clutch in it starts moving, but when it finally starts in reverse it grinds real bad. I am sure I put the clutch in the right way and the levers seemed to be lined up on the trans correctly. What could be my problem do I have to get a 4spd pilot bushing? I am all out of ideas thanks guys.

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Old 11-28-2005, 06:06 PM
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First off, there is no way the pilot bushing is causing your problem. My guess would be the wrong release bearing for the particular clutch you have. As long as the pressure plate is not fully disengaging you will have problems shifting and even getting it into gear while running. If it were me and I could not find the same clutch as I took out, I would have had that one rebuilt. How many places did you try for the proper clutch?

Vince
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Old 11-28-2005, 06:32 PM
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I did eventually get the right clutch from NAPA the only problem was it was for a 3spd which is what the original clutch had to come from. The thowout bearing is the same demensions as the one I replaced it with. Thanks though
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Old 11-28-2005, 09:28 PM
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Sounds like the clutch is not completely disengaging, either from maladjustment or maybe the wrong parts.

Try adjusting the clutch so that it has about an inch of free play (measured at the pedal) when the pedal is all the way out. You should be able to push it in easily with a finger for about an inch before running into heavy resistance. Then be sure the clutch is not beginning to engage until the pedal is at least an inch or two off the floor. If you can't get it working right like this, you either have the wrong parts, or something is installed wrong.
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Old 11-29-2005, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiders
I did eventually get the right clutch from NAPA the only problem was it was for a 3spd which is what the original clutch had to come from. The thowout bearing is the same demensions as the one I replaced it with. Thanks though

Excuse me. What just happened here?

So you put that you replaced it with different/wrong stuff and now it doesn't work...... DUH.

You have a problem and then 58 minutes later you "DID EVENTUALLY GET" another clutch that fixes the problem.......

This is just another "jerk-off-thread", right?

Oh ya, you are an AMC guy.... I should have known from that.

Lot's of people like to help, but AMC guys are always jerking-off on this site.
Are you the alter-ego to that other AMC jerk who posts schtuff for amusement?????? You guys ought to get together and jerk each other.

As far as I am concerned = AMC, never again.

Last edited by xntrik; 11-29-2005 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 11-29-2005, 10:25 AM
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Alright there is no reason to be a jerk! I could be a jerk to you and type that maybe you should LEARN HOW TO READ all the info is all in the paragraph I wrote above.

Here special for you I'll type it so maybe you can understand. I bought a 74 Javelin 360/4spd which is unoriginal. The guy that owned it before me took a 70 360 that used to be back by a 3spd and put it in front of a 68 4spd. He used the same clutch and pressure plate from the 3spd so I bought what he had used succesfully a 3spd clutch kit. Turns out he couldn't use the throw out bearing from the 3spd and replaced it with the 4spd throw out bearing which is also what I had to do.

I didn't use a 4spd pilot bushing which I found HELPFUL people here told me shouldn't be a problem. That was one of my questions the other question I had was maybe the 4spd clutch levers were bumped and moved around in the process but I found that I shifts into all gear and nuetral so that shouldn't be the problem either. I am pretty sure I put the clutch in the right way but it's a possibility I reversed it on accident. The other question was maybe something could be binding. I will have to remove the trans anyway so I will find out anyway.

I would like to say thank you to all the helpful people that gave me advice. I would also like to say jerks like xntrik give muscle car guys a bad name, thanks for nothing. By the way I am a MOPAR man not an AMC guy I bought this car on a whim.
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Old 11-29-2005, 11:23 AM
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shifting

Ok as the other have stated the problem is that the pressure plate is not totally releasing....

now to find out why???

When you say the new throwout bearing was the same measurments as the old one are you talking about the height??? or the diameter??? is the locating groove at the same location in respect to the face of the bearing???? Did you slide the new bearing on the bearing retainer of the transmisssion to make sure it moved free?????

Are you positive that you have all the clutch linkage back in the same holes it came out of???? Was the flywheel surfaced when you changed the clutch.....

xntrik, that was totally uncalled for, unless you know something the rest of us don't????

Keith
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Old 11-29-2005, 03:23 PM
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The throwout bearing was the same in height, inner diameter and outer diameter. I did slide it on the trans to make sure. Now the ring seemed to be in the same place and now that you mention it there were two ring grooves. I am pretty sure I put it in the first ring groove where it should be and I think the other groove is too wide anyway. This is something I am going to check and also I have to make sure that ball bearing didn't fall out from under the arm. Yes I had the flywheel resurfaced it had some burn marks on it. I wish I had a lift it would be so much easier to pull a trans not being two inches off the ground with a normal 2 ton car jack and a two x four, also a trans jack would help. It will be alittle bit before I get the trans yanked cause of the cold weather and I just lost my job. I will let you guys know what I find. Thanks for all the help
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Old 12-05-2005, 09:36 AM
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I'm one of the few REAL AMC guys here, and might be able to help. The pilot bushing CAN be causing your problem. If the pilot is tight enough on the input shaft to cause the shaft to spin, it will act as if the clutch is partially engaged. That seems to be what yours is doing. When you pull the trans to check, also check the DEPTH of the pilot hole in the crank. I installed an older model three speed on a newer AMC crank (about 10 years between) and had the same problem. Turns out the input shaft was bottoming out in the pilot hole and spinning the input with the engine. Start it in gear and it would be fine until you shifted, start in neutral and it would grind when you went to put it in gear (if you could get it in). Took a few seconds with a grinder to take about 1/16" off the end of the input shaft. Took pulling the trans and clutch three times to figure out the problem -- just like you! So check the pilot bushing and depth of hole. One of them is likely to be tight.


Note that I'm usually NOT the jerk some people on here are. I'm probably the AMC guy who posts most on here, so I can only assume I'm the one being talked about -- without good reason. Not only do I usually give good advice (for all makes), but I know AMCs very well. They are put together as good as anything else, better than some. Like ALL MAKES, a lot depends on the year and model, and what you expect. They aren't as big a mish-mash of parts as the general idiot believes, just shows whatthey DON'T know. AMC did in the mid 60s and 70s what everyone does now -- buy parts from subcontractors if they can buy cheaper than they can make them. So they were ahead of the times in many ways. They made their OWN ENGINES with a few temporary exceptions. They are no longer in business not because of a bad product, but because they were a small company playing in a highly competitive field where huge companies were willing and able to build low cost price leaders and start price wars. Those big companies had high production numbers on the low cost stuff so didn't need much as much profit, and built enough higher priced cars they could afford to not make much on the lower priced ones. At one time there were over 100 auto companies in the US, all independent of each other. It took 84 years for AMC to finally succumb in a highly competitive market. They were the second car to be mass produced in the US (a year behind Olds, a year ahead of Ford). I'll be the first to tell you there were some management and marketing mistakes made in the mid sixties to mid seventies that hurt the company -- and they couldn't afford mistakes that Ford, GM, and Chrysler (who almost went under years before AMC, in case no one remembers Mr. Mopar guy -- no gov't bail out for AMC!) could afford to recover from. The Pacer ended up as a mistake, but was actually a good idea at the time. It was conceived well before the gas crunch, and if not for that would have done well. 45,000 Pacers were sold in the first three months of production -- they could have sold more, but couldn't build them any faster! Sales were good the first two years, then slumped because it got no better mileage than other mid size cars (it was short, but wide -- still as heavy as a mid size, which is really what it was meant to be -- a "compact mid-size" car). So it lost any appeal, and AMC couldn't afford to reengineer an engine for it -- which it sorely needed. The other US companies were having problems too, but hadn't sunk as much money in their cars as AMC did the Pacer. AMC spent all it's development money on the Pacer, which was simply the wrong car for the times -- just bad luck! If not for the gas crunch and on-slaught of Japanese imports, it would have been a different story (mainly the gas crunch for the Pacer). Pacers aren't exciting cars, unless you stick a 360 or 401 in. It also becomes a nice driver with a 4.0L (the old AMC six w/a new EFI system and head) stuck in it. I've seen one of those, and it's waht the Pacer should have been, and possibly would have been had GM not screwd AMC by dropping the Wankel engine. Yep, a big tie-in there!
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Old 12-05-2005, 12:44 PM
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The pilot bushing I remember was shallower than the depth of the hole in the flywheel. The bushing I have in there now is from a 3spd clutch kit, you're saying if I were to purchase a 4spd pilot bushing it could work or do I have to grind on the bushing? Also I forgot to tell you this setup was working originally before I got the new clutch kit, so the input shaft length on the trans should be OK. I should have just kept the pilot bushing the other owner had in there. That was the only thing I didn't measure, that just shows you haste makes waste.

I would like to say the reason I am having this much difficulty with the car is because the previous owner was a total moron, not because the car is an AMC. When I drove this car before I had to do the maintenance on it, it was very quick and ran smooth. When I put roller rockers on the car it was so easy I didn't even have to machine the heads. All I had to do was buy new studs and of course the push rods. The only problems I am having is finding parts for these cars and service manuals.

There is a small issue with oil pressure loss but I heard that could be the fram oil filter I have or the oil pressure relief valve is sticking.

Other than that I would have to say I would definitely purchase another AMC, only this time from a more responsible owner. Thanks for your help Farna I really appreciate it!
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Old 12-06-2005, 09:24 AM
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First:
Did the trans slip into the bellhousing and mate flush without any force? If so its not the pilot bearing, if it was to tight you would have had to force the trans upto the bell housing with the mounting bolts.
Second:
You said you were not sure if you put the clutch disc in correctly, I would check that first it doesn't take long to pop the trans back out and look. If the disc is in backwards you know the springs will hit the flywheel bolts and that interference will keep the clutch spining even if the pressure plate is disengaged.
Third:
If you didnt change any adjustments worst case would be the clutch maybe wouldnt disengage enough because as the clutch wears the fingers on the pressure plate move out away from the flywheel meaning you would have to shorten up the clutch linkage to keep it from slipping. If that was the case the clutch arm wouldnt be able to move the throwout bearing far enough forward to release the clutch fully.

I love manual tranys there so simple which goes back to the KISS theory, Keep It Simple Stupid.
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Old 12-06-2005, 02:11 PM
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It didn't slide in flush actually, it slide in to about a half inch from the bell housing then I tightened the bolts to put it flush. That ws my first hint that it was the pilot bushing. I'm pretty sure I put it in the right way but there is always the chance that I accidentily flipped it when I crawled under the car to put it in. I tried to adjust the linkage out all the way but it still wouldn't work. Thanks
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Old 12-07-2005, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiders
It didn't slide in flush actually, it slide in to about a half inch from the bell housing then I tightened the bolts to put it flush. That ws my first hint that it was the pilot bushing. I'm pretty sure I put it in the right way but there is always the chance that I accidentily flipped it when I crawled under the car to put it in. I tried to adjust the linkage out all the way but it still wouldn't work. Thanks
Then I'd say that the pilot bushing is to tight is probably is most of your problem. Since you'll have to pull the trany back out to fix it you can make double sure the clutch disc is in correct.
When you get the trany out and the clutch and pressure plate off just take a micrometer and measure the input shaft diameter where its suppose to be in the pilot bushing and then measure the bushing hole diameter and make sure that they dont interfear.
Its not good to drill a pilot bushing because the heat will make some of the lubricant come out of the bushing, but if you have too, use the smallest incraments of drill sizes untill you get to the final diameter so that you dont put much heat into the bushing.
I guess you know how the get the bushing out since you said you changed it in the first place, but always slide the new one onto the input shaft to make sure it slides on easily that way you know its right before you put it back together.
One more thing, always slide the clutch disc onto the input shaft to and make sure it slides on easily and all the way up the splines.
When you put it all back together a very light coat of high temp grease should be applied to the input splines where the clutch rides so that it doesn't stick. Also don't put grease in the pilot bushing hole like allot of people do because the heat from the flywheel will liquify it and it will sling onto your new clutch. The new bushing is impregnated with enough lube to last its lifetime.

good luck!
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Old 12-07-2005, 11:03 AM
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I also read that if you use grease on the pilot bushing it will clog the pores blocking the bushings own lubricant. To get the first bushing out I packed the inside with grease then I used a punch to force the bushing out. Is this how you do it or is there an easier way? Thanks for your help.
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Old 12-07-2005, 12:47 PM
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Grease and a punch is the easy way to remove the pilot. Sounds like you've found the problem!

As far as service manuals, the 68-70 manuals are harder to find and more expensive than others because those are the years the collectible AMX two seater were made. You can find parts and a reprint of the manual at www.amclives.com, as well as most of the hard to find parts. I like the "smooth fender" Javelins best myself. The "hump fender" 71-74 models are more popular with the muscle car crowd though because of their more agressive looks. I prefer subtlety.

There is a 73 manual on-line at http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/AMC/1973/Service/. That will cover all your critical specs on the engine and manual transmissions. AMC switched from Borg-Warner to Chrysler auto trannys in 72. There are some differences between the 70 and 73 Javelin, but most are just cosmetic. Most mechanical procedures will be the same in 70 and 73 with a few exceptions -- which I'm sure you'll find!

The best thing about the 1970 is it has the newer ball joint suspension instead of a lower ball joint and upper trunnion like the 68-69 models. I'm really not opposed to the trunnions -- they are simple to work on and perform quite well. The American trunnion design is different than the big car though. The 64-69 American/Javelin/AMX trunnion is a strange animal! It's got a big rubber bushing that will eventually wear out (after 100K or so miles and 15-20 years service) and causes alignment and handling problems. The big cars (and older Americans) have a totally different trunnion design that doesn't have a wear problem at all.
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