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Old 08-28-2010, 05:26 PM
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Both Supercharged and turbocharged v8?

Can this be done? I know a supercharger wastes energy, but you would have no boost lag. Could one install both a supercharger and a turbo with a clutch style setup such as an ac compressor does? Say the supercharger stays running until about 2500 rpm, then a clutch disengages it so that the turbo and the engine can reach full potential? Has this been done?

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Old 08-28-2010, 05:46 PM
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Google twin charging. There are quite a few guys out there doing small motors.

Kevin
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Old 08-28-2010, 05:51 PM
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Yes you can combine a supercharger and a turbo charger to supercharge a motor.

properly selected modern turbos have vertually no turbo lag.

Part of that is matching the transmission torque converter stall speed
to the engine torque curve and turbo boost curve.

When all matched up you mash the gas, the converter stalls up and the turbo spools and off you go at very near peak boost and tons of power.

What you are purposing is much more complicated.
Matching the converter stall up works bettter.

Best to call a race converter company directly. They will build you a unique custom made "turbo friendly" torque converter for your engine. A off the shelf converter willl leave performance on the table. This application is a bit tricky for the layman.

A shot of nitrous will get any lazy turbo spooled up in a big hurry and overcome any turbo boost lag instantly. Doesn;t take a lot of nitrous to get a lazy turbo real busy in a hurry.

If you try to select your own torque converter for this you will get it wrong.

Modern design superchargers consume little power to drive the blower.
like the new Eatons/Magnason or a "Screw blower" ,,,google it

The Basic good old Roots blower makes so much extra engine power you can afford to give up some of that extra power to spin the blower and pump/compress the air.

Some WWII piston aircraft engines use both a supercharger and a turbo combined on a 2 stage arrangement. Usually the supercharger has two selectable drive ratios.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 08-28-2010 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 08-29-2010, 06:18 AM
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Some european car manufacturers did what you propose. I'm fairly certain they all gave up on that route and use a simple turbo system now. A proprly sized modern turbo has VERY little lag.
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Old 08-29-2010, 06:51 AM
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Im gonna put my 2 cents worth of how they do this on a high performance diesel.......
Blower is direct driven..no clutch...Ratio 2.5:1 Both blower end plates have blower by-pass valves.
job of by-pass valves is to equalize the pressure on top of blower with bottom of blower,at this point, since pressures are equal,no work is being done by blower,just turbos.
This happens at about 20psi turbo boost, after that its all turbo up to top of boost=40psi or so.
I dont think this will work in a gas engine (Ive never heard of it),maybe its been done.....I dont know.
Modern turbos do spool up really fast.
And the blower by-pass deal is only on 2 stroke Diesels..53,71,92 and 149 series Detroit Diesels,really old technology!
But I always did think turbos were a great way to recover heat that would otherwise be wasted!
Im probably gonna get another nail in my coffin for saying this,but a rootes blower robs a lot of power from an engine(please note I said Rootes blower)
OK. for Top Fuel ,where you need upwards of 1,000 H.P. for 3 to 5 seconds
but for the street ,to me anyway,they just look cool and thats all.
Volvo diesel on marine application only tried an A/C clutch arragment deal on a blower/turbo combination,was very complicated,computer controlled.
All these systems are dry charge(air only,no fuel)

Last edited by topwrench; 08-29-2010 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:49 AM
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Today's Top Fuel engines need almost 1000 hp- just to run the blower! The engines put out around 7500-8000 hp, depending on who you ask.
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Old 08-29-2010, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroker444
Can this be done? I know a supercharger wastes energy, but you would have no boost lag. Could one install both a supercharger and a turbo with a clutch style setup such as an ac compressor does? Say the supercharger stays running until about 2500 rpm, then a clutch disengages it so that the turbo and the engine can reach full potential? Has this been done?
A supercharger really doesn't waste energy...it simply takes some HP to make it work. A fan wastes energy... it doesn't make up for the lost HP like a S/C does...
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Old 08-29-2010, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Today's Top Fuel engines need almost 1000 hp- just to run the blower! The engines put out around 7500-8000 hp, depending on who you ask.
I guess I should have said 1000 h.p."to run the blower"
I know how much a blower takes to drive..... Ive probably rebuilt more than some people have ever seen!
And easy to figure horsepower from e.t.
Soooo 7 or 8000 h.p. wouldnt surprise me.
But im not a drag racer just roundy round stuff!
Engines have to last a little longer!
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Old 08-29-2010, 06:37 PM
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Here is a camaro that I saw at Zmax recently. It has twin turbos that feed the blower, it also has a huge shot of nitrous. The bird catcher on top is just for show, it gets all its air from the turbos.
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_v23
Here is a camaro that I saw at Zmax recently. It has twin turbos that feed the blower, it also has a huge shot of nitrous. The bird catcher on top is just for show, it gets all its air from the turbos.
This is going to add 0 tech value to this thread, but I just had to say:

Awesome.

K
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Old 08-29-2010, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroker444
Can this be done? I know a supercharger wastes energy, but you would have no boost lag. Could one install both a supercharger and a turbo with a clutch style setup such as an ac compressor does? Say the supercharger stays running until about 2500 rpm, then a clutch disengages it so that the turbo and the engine can reach full potential? Has this been done?
It has been done, but only in a Mad Max movie.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:07 AM
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Its gotta be a wet flow nightmare!
And just like a monkey peeing on a cash register,"Its gonna run into money"
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:29 AM
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http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=174690
]HERE[/url] is thread on the subject of twincharging.


Below is Rick Dobbertin's Nova. A much nicer ride IMO than the over-the-top J2000 he built later on. Those CRAPPY Edelbrock filters bother me to this day!

Nova

The image below is of the Dobbertin J2000. It has twin turbos and twin Roots superchargers. Oh, and nitrous, too:

J2000

Besides tractor pullers, there are and were numerous excursions into twincharging various engines using various methods. A book could be compiled, for that matter, w/all the permutations.

"Golden Gator" Top Alcohol Dragster
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:25 AM
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All the $$$ in that engine with those crappy one back fire, flame filters.
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