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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2013, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
But on the same note, if a task that was done to the car isn't on the repair order they are in deep poo poo with BAR at least here in California. EVERY SINGLE nut or bolt turned has to be documented for the customer. Putting a light bulb in a taillight without putting it on the work order is means for a fine.

Brian
if they didn't strip it they won't guarantee it. It's a trick shops use to get them to strip it. "We'll paint it but we can't guarantee it will last. So I'd say if stripping was done, in which it should be noted on the estimate, then they'd do the honest thing. With that said, some guys will go far beyond what others will do. Those type of guys will just remember they stripped your car and fix it even if it's not on the estimate to strip.

It's a tough one cause how do you legally protect the customer AND the shop at the same time? Can't just expect shops to KNOW what's under that paint if they aren't getting paid to strip. Not even sure The BAR has this all figured out, but we both know who's side they take in Ca.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2013, 02:14 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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I don't know anything about other states of course but here in California the ONLY thing a shop has to do, is what they said on the work order, PERIOD. The BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair, State of California, Dept. of Consumer Affairs Bureau of Automotive Repair) has no power what so ever, ZERO when determining "quality" of the work being performed. That the work IS performed on the work order is ALL they can or will protect for the consumer. If the shop leaves one $2.50 clip off the car that is on the repair order and the customer paid for it THAT can get them a fine. But painting a car without sanding it gets nothing, zero. If the work order said "sand and paint" and they sanded it with 36 grit paper, or they sanded three swipes across the hood, that would be perfectly ok and legal as far as the BAR is concerned, they don't judge "quality" for it is subjective. But what the work order says the customer was charged for, that is another story. If it says "R&I left door handle" it had better been removed and re-installed or they are breaking the law.

Brian
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2013, 03:21 PM
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I just heard back from the owner. They were supposed to strip the car down to bare metal before painting. She called the owner, who has agrred to meet with her and examine the car when she is next in town (Norfolk, VA). That will be in about a month, so I'll update the thread when I have some news.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2013, 06:00 AM
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This depends on what kind of sound deadening the Desoto had. I know nothing about those cars but I know I have seen Chevys from the thirties with holes rusted from the inside out up in the middle of the doors because of the water soaked sound deadening material that were glued to the inside of the skin!

Brian
Also, something I noticed when I moved to Fla. is the cars rusted out backwards from the way they do in NY which rust from the bottom up... in Fla they rust from the inside out and the roofs go first because of condensation and humidity
virgina beach = salt air and humidity.....like Fla.
but it might not be rust at all you cant paint urathane paints over lacquers , you'll get bubbles....it could be anything and if it wasnt stripped the shop cant be responsible. if everything was rechromed 20,000 is cheap, too cheap
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2013, 06:39 AM
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if everything was rechromed 20,000 is cheap, too cheap
Off Topic:

Seeing this line reminds me that I am way too poor for this hobby. Thanks for the reality check.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2013, 09:53 AM
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Off Topic:

Seeing this line reminds me that I am way too poor for this hobby. Thanks for the reality check.
Lot's of time. money and expectations are imvolved in this hooby.

I appreciate all the feedback on this issue and it helps me as I gather information to support and help my friend. The more I know, the more likely it is we will arrive at a reasonable resolution, even if it's just helping my friend accept the situation.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2013, 10:40 AM
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Lot's of time. money and expectations are imvolved in this hooby.

I appreciate all the feedback on this issue and it helps me as I gather information to support and help my friend. The more I know, the more likely it is we will arrive at a reasonable resolution, even if it's just helping my friend accept the situation.

You have a very good head on your shoulders and a great attitude.

Brian
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2013, 11:11 AM
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I have been reading the replies on this post and most are quick to blame the shop that did the car. Sorry guys but just too many unknowns here, too many details we don't know about. How many of you guys that do this type of work are willing to follow around customers with a spraygun forever. You can't control every square inch of a car years later and then be expected to "take care" of it for the bubble. Any decent shop that does restoration type paintwork will get 75 to 100 an hour and at 20 grand for everthing done does seem a bit light to me........just being realistic here.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2013, 01:24 PM
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I have been reading the replies on this post and most are quick to blame the shop that did the car. Sorry guys but just too many unknowns here, too many details we don't know about. How many of you guys that do this type of work are willing to follow around customers with a spraygun forever. You can't control every square inch of a car years later and then be expected to "take care" of it for the bubble. Any decent shop that does restoration type paintwork will get 75 to 100 an hour and at 20 grand for everthing done does seem a bit light to me........just being realistic here.

So true, it's a huge car and it doesn't take long to eat up 20K...especially if there is any amount of rechroming. We don't know many things and this is where documentation is crucial. I insist on it...I have become extremely anal and have even had customer's ask if they are paying for the obvious hours of documentation (I don't charge for documentation...I need it to protect myself as well as my customer) and as Brian said, document every nut and bolt that was turned and even then...things can happen.

As you said Dennis, your "just being realistic here" and for a strip to bare metal, bring the substrate to a workable level for the top coat and rechroming...20K sounds more like a deposit...not a complete bill.

So see the documentation, if you like, bring it back here on the forum and then we can assess and hopefully give you a more realistic and honest opinion so you can decide on a direction.

Ray
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 06:47 AM
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Off Topic:

Seeing this line reminds me that I am way too poor for this hobby. Thanks for the reality check.
Very few can afford to have a car restored.me included BUT.... I CAN do it myself and so can you ,Thats why were here, to help you guys build a safe decient car and not get raped at the paint store.
Theres a few of us that run our own shops so we know what the best deals are for quality materials and the brands you should buy.
There are ways to get around the high costs of building a car. If everyone could afford to have a car restored there would probably be no hot rodders .com ...and I wouldnt know what to do with myself in the morning while drinking my coffee....I'd probably go to the shop an hour earlier...
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2013, 07:51 AM
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Follow-Up

Here's how things played out.

I looked at the contract. The car was to be soda blasted and re-painted. The blasting was done by a sub-contractor, the paint done in-house.

The owners tried to set up a meeting with the shop. After a week of un-returned calls, the owner (busy with is TV show producers) finally told them to bring it in to take a look at the paint and reminded them that he offered mechanical services to get the car running again.

Now I realize that it has been 3 years since it was painted, but the car has been garaged during that time. A friend of mine in the auto body/paint business looked at the bubbles and felt that the problem was consistent with improper prep after soda blasting, but it could be from other causes as well. There are hundreds of these bubbles all over the car.

Given that the car needed some mechanical work the guy could do, I felt that there was some room to negotiate a some reasonable resolution. We knew we'd have to pay something.

We towed the car to the shop, arriving at 4:15pm on a Friday. The owner was in a heated discussion with his TV producers, so we wound up talking with the body shop manager who shook his head and said it "shouldn't have done that".

The shop owned called my friend the next morning at about 9:30am and said that the DuPont rep examined the car and said the paint was not at fault. My friend asked for the name of the paint rep so he could speak with him directly and the owner replied that he would get a "full written report next week" (has not yet arrived after 10 days AFAIK). He then stated that he had no intention of doing anything about the paint, that my friend had kept the car under a wet car cover (never been under a cover, always garaged) and then offered to provide the name of his insurance company, refused to consider doing any mechanical repairs and wanted the car out of his shop as soon as possible.

End of conversation.

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2013, 09:15 AM
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As has been the theme throughout this thread, information is key...not only now, but when the vehicle was first done.

It sounds to me as though your friend in the auto body business is correct...I have reread your thread and it seems to me that today is the first time we have heard that the car was soda blasted....and it was on the contract. The soda blasted metal should have been properly neutralized and is in all probability the reason there are bubbles under the paint. I agree with your guy...it could be something else...but...soda blast...bubbles...if it was something else, the bubbles wouldn't be all over, they would usually be more centralized in a problem area...soda blasting and improperly preparing the blasted metal would be consistent with this type of problem.

The Dupont guy is correct as well...the paint didn't fail, in my opinion the person whose task it was to neutralize the surface before priming failed...the paint can only adhere to what it was designed to adhere to...soda blasted metal is not one of those substrates.

Regardless, the person who wanted the work done went to a shop in good faith, expecting a professional to do what they said they could and listed on the repair order. It didn't happen...in my opinion, the shop needs to suck this one up and redo the vehicle properly...that being said...those bubbles didn't just appear one day...they started appearing a while ago and the owner has a responsibility to take it back to the shop in a timely manor...4 years doesn't seem that timely.

Both parties need to accept some responsibility here...more responsibility on the shop's side than the customer...no matter what...the shop is expected to know how to paint a car after it has been soda blasted.

Just my opinions.

Ray
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2013, 09:48 AM
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those bubbles didn't just appear one day...they started appearing a while ago and the owner has a responsibility to take it back to the shop in a timely manor...4 years doesn't seem that timely.
The car has been garaged since it was repainted three years ago and washed and waxed regularly. The bubbles didn't appear until this summer (and kind of blossomed into existence) and the car owner, who lives 1,000 miles away from here, wanted to see the problem himself and meet the shop owner face-to-face to discuss it. I had prepared him for the fact that after three years, it wasn't likely that the shop owner would eat 100% of the cost of repairs and my friend was OK with that. He was as amazed as I was when the shop owner became combative and blew him off right away, but from stories I've since heard, that seems to be the shop owners' style when dealing with problems.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2013, 09:58 AM
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for at least 10 years there have been warnings about soda blasting and acids . but those who use it swear we dont know what we are talking about and continue to advise people how great it is . this a classic example of what happens. everyone involved will point to someone else . you soda blast a car or use any acid it will never see the inside of my shop .
the shop is 100% responsible for this problem . they used a stripping method not approved by any paint mfg . that is why dupont told them goodbye . if i were the customer i would take it to court and sue the hell out of them. the shop owner knows full well what happened but he just does not want to honor the job . these bubble would have shown up much faster had the car been outside much more.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2013, 10:12 AM
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The car has been garaged since it was repainted three years ago and washed and waxed regularly. The bubbles didn't appear until this summer (and kind of blossomed into existence) and the car owner, who lives 1,000 miles away from here, wanted to see the problem himself and meet the shop owner face-to-face to discuss it. I had prepared him for the fact that after three years, it wasn't likely that the shop owner would eat 100% of the cost of repairs and my friend was OK with that. He was as amazed as I was when the shop owner became combative and blew him off right away, but from stories I've since heard, that seems to be the shop owners' style when dealing with problems.
The attitude displayed by the owner of the vehicle was the correct attitude to have and in my opinion, the shop owner should have stepped up instead of being combative. However, my opinions won't change what happened and how the shop owner treated the original customer.

As far as the bubbles go, I think I'd be fairly safe to say that they where beginning to happen early on after the car was painted. Perhaps the owner didn't know what to look for and the fact that he was quite a ways away wouldn't help either.

This is a situation that probably isn't as uncommon as one might think. I've seen similar situations when I was the guy looking at paint problems, needing to decide if warranty should be given....many times, warranty was given when the paint product didn't fail...it was more of a matter of good faith for a good customer. You mentioned that the shop owner has a reputation or style for dealing with problems...I can almost say for certain, if the shop owner treats his customer's they way he treated the owner of this vehicle, he could very well have used up his relationship with the Paint Company and the Paint Rep to the point where they aren't interested in helping him anymore...I've seen this happen many times...and also been the guy that has told shops that enough is enough and that the Paint Company wasn't going to go to bat for the shop anymore and eat the cost of their mistakes.

Again, just my opinion.

Ray
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