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Budget Sleeper Beast build

6K views 25 replies 5 participants last post by  64nailhead 
#1 ·
Hi everyone, first post here and I'm gonna make it a big one.

I'm here to try and build a sleeper.

What I've got.

-- 1988 Chevy caprice classic
-- 5.3 LM7 truck engine
-- TH400 transmission
-- Intercooler

What I'm thinking of adding

-- GT45 turbo
-- Microsquirt 3 ECU
-- GFB G-Force II Electronic Boost Controller
-- Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump
-- Aeromotive 13101 fuel pressure regulator
-- Beans diesel fuel tank sump

Maybe doing

-- Bucket front seats with console
-- B&M ratchet shifter

Now onto the questions.

I want this thing to be a straight line monster, so I'll need to change the rear end. What would you guys recommend? I was thinking of going with a Dana 60 but I cant find any good rims in the 8x6.5 bolt pattern.

I want to use these tires ToyoÂ*Proxes TQ so I'd need a 17x12 rim to fit them.

But I'd love to hear what you guys are using on your cars!

I'm open to suggestions and criticism on all parts of this so feel free to speak your minds, and thanks for any replies.

I can get some pictures later on if anyone is interested. Let me know

Edit: Forgot to mention I'm trying to be as budget minded as possible.
 
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#2 ·
That's alot of pump, but a good one. An 044 should be good though to 650hp, and a bunch cheaper. Then save the money on the sump. You'll need some PAC 1218 valve springs if the boost is going to be cranked up. Are you going to leave the stock cam?

I disagree on changing the rear end unless you're expecting outragous whp (600+). I'd use the stock 8.5 with an 8.6 posi 30 spline with a set of Moser axles. If you want to use your ring and pinion, then you'll have about $600 or so tied up with a Quick's Performance giddyup. And then tires and wheels are alot easier (and cheaper) to come by.

How much boost are you planing to run? If more than 10-12, then I'd recommend opening up the ring gaps if you are at all not interested in changing parts or swapping the motor anytime soon. Unless of course your motor is a 250K+, well broke in unit.

Will the Microsquirt run the coils? I know an MS2 can be setup to have 4 coil drivers (have companion cylinders firing at the same time) for under $500. Or a base MS1, 2, or Microsquirt with an MSD Goldbox will work just fine as well. I'm not a fan of a boost controller much either, but I know that some are - it's just to darn easy to swap wastegate sprngs IMO. I've seen some running/using the EBC to aid in traction control though, but I've never been around one personally.

I'm sure that others will pipe in, but take one piece of advaice - CREEP up on the tune.

Good luck and keep us posted - Jim
 
#3 ·
That's alot of pump, but a good one. An 044 should be good though to 650hp, and a bunch cheaper. Then save the money on the sump. You'll need some PAC 1218 valve springs if the boost is going to be cranked up. Are you going to leave the stock cam?
Ha, I totally forgot about my goals. I'm hoping to push this to the max on the engine(likely beyond) without changing much inside. I would love for it to push towards 1000hp.

How much boost are you planing to run? If more than 10-12, then I'd recommend opening up the ring gaps if you are at all not interested in changing parts or swapping the motor anytime soon. Unless of course your motor is a 250K+, well broke in unit.
I've already had the motor apart and gapped the rings. I'm hoping to push around 22-24 psi boost on it. I know this will likely ruin the motor very quickly and am prepared to deal with that when it happens.

Will the Microsquirt run the coils? I know an MS2 can be setup to have 4 coil drivers (have companion cylinders firing at the same time) for under $500. Or a base MS1, 2, or Microsquirt with an MSD Goldbox will work just fine as well. I'm not a fan of a boost controller much either, but I know that some are - it's just to darn easy to swap wastegate sprngs IMO. I've seen some running/using the EBC to aid in traction control though, but I've never been around one personally.
I'm going to be totally honest with you here and say that I have never done more than simple mechanic work on a car before. Oil changes, replacing shocks and springs, or a lift pump on a diesel pickup for example. This is a huge learning experience for me.

I got the Microsquirt suggestion from a person over at theturboforums where I had originally made a thread looking to build an old SBC I had (http://www.theturboforums.com/threads/379420-Budget-Build-2K-3K)

I was going to use the boost controller so that I could run the car on just pump gas if I were to be somewhere and lose the water/meth kit for some reason.

If I can get my internet to work properly I'll get a couple pictures of what I'm working with on here tonight.
 
#4 ·
Keep in mind this opinion. I've done tons of reading and know a fair amount of people doing what you're attempting. And I've seen the carnage and success.

The limiting factor on the 5.3 is the rods. You mentioned LM7, you need the heavier rods that appeared in either 2004 or 2005. The earlier ones will stick around a little while at 600HP, not for long - they are the weak link in the early 5.3's. The stock cam and truck intake are the next items to go. An LS3 or LS7 intake are a big plus. Of course the valve springs and ring gaps need to be addressed.

Look up sloppy mechanics wiki page and you'll get a step by step recipe for what is needed.

Contact both EFISource and DIYAutotune for your controller needs. I recommend DIY, but many will recommend EFISource. The MS tuning capabilities are second to none, especially for what you're doing IMO. If you're set on using the boost controller, then the MS2 is plenty. DIY will set it up for you to handle 4 ignition outputs that I described previuosly. Of course a wideband O2 is a necessity.

Turbo(s), CAC, and piping are easily found. For what you're doing steer clear of high dollar turbo's unless you intend to get new or rebuilt CHRA's everytime the motor goes kaflooey. Many have had great success with ON3 and VS Racing. Get the biggest chinese intercooler that'll fit. Regarding turbos and piping, it is alot easier and cheaper to run twins with stock manifolds flipped with flanges welded on. But there are alot of guys made giant go withstock manifold with a crossover to run a single as well.

You'll need plenty of fuel line size. Either your A1000 or a twin 044 setup will handle what your after. You'll need good pre and post filters - don't cheap out here - the filters needs to be able to both filter and flow. 80lb injectors at a minimum.

Sounds like alot of fun.

Almost forgot, for what you're doing I agree to scrap the 8.5. I'd jump directly to a 9".
 
#6 ·
The limiting factor on the 5.3 is the rods. You mentioned LM7, you need the heavier rods that appeared in either 2004 or 2005. The earlier ones will stick around a little while at 600HP, not for long - they are the weak link in the early 5.3's. The stock cam and truck intake are the next items to go. An LS3 or LS7 intake are a big plus. Of course the valve springs and ring gaps need to be addressed.
Good news is that it's a 2007 motor, what cam would you recommend for the car? I wouldn't mind a nice rough idle just like an old big block.

Turbo(s), CAC, and piping are easily found. For what you're doing steer clear of high dollar turbo's unless you intend to get new or rebuilt CHRA's everytime the motor goes kaflooey. Many have had great success with ON3 and VS Racing. Get the biggest chinese intercooler that'll fit. Regarding turbos and piping, it is alot easier and cheaper to run twins with stock manifolds flipped with flanges welded on. But there are alot of guys made giant go withstock manifold with a crossover to run a single as well.
I was planning on using the stock manifolds hooked up to a single GT45 turbo for $200 so no expensive turbos yet.

The donor car came with an intercooler but I haven't measured it.

Almost forgot, for what you're doing I agree to scrap the 8.5. I'd jump directly to a 9".
I saw this 9" on craigslist and was thinking of picking it up 9" ladder bar rear end and getting one of these centers Fastshafts Ford 9 in. Center Assemblies F9471 but I don't think I need a gear with that high of a ratio on it. What do you think?
 
#5 ·
This is the car I'm building, it was a running and driving 88 caprice classic
I love the mudflaps


Hopefully not the last time it works


Grass isn't going to grow there for a while


Donor car(86 Firebird) with a 2007 LM7 inside


There was an old sbc on the engine stand so it's on some logs for a few days


My dad is gonna kick me out of the garage before I know it
 
#7 ·
Steer clear of lumpy cams for an LS turbo build. Alot of overlap isn't going to help with the turbo. Other than that, I don't recommend cams.

The rear end setup you found is definitely going to be race only, and is going to require the rear to be tubbed. Whatever rearend set up you go with depends on your ability and finances. Do you have $2K to spend on a rear? Can you get brackets welded onto a housing? Are you going to be concerned if you break the rear?

That is great news that you have the better rods.

Gt45, a big 76mm or moderate 88mm will all work. Bigger is better for a strip build, quick boost is not a concern if it isn't primarily street driven. And I agree with hcompton, meth injection is a necessity.
 
#10 ·
Finally got it out of the shed, and I get to work in the garage this year!



So, let's say that I had to replace the cam (why didn't anyone tell me that it matters which lifters go where darn it) what would you use for this build?

Should I also replace the lifters? If so what with?

I can't wait to get this thing going now that I can finally work on it.

I have read all your suggestions on the rear end and have decided to wait until it's running to actually do anything with it.

This car may never see the strip or a track, I just want to put a load of power into it and see how well it goes. I'm leaving the interior alone and keeping the AC. I'm also trying to keep this as low budget as possible so no replacing the whole rear frame.

I forgot to put into the first post that I was planning on running this meth kit (Stage 2 Boost Cooler Water-Methanol Injection System) any thoughts on it?
 
#11 ·
You're definitely right about the 15 inch rims, I didn't post it but that's what I'm going to do in the end. Probably go with Mickey Thompsons ET Street S/S tires too.

The lifters in it aren't rollers so I'll probably replace them.

Hopefully I can fit the rear end in the budget.

That computer is definitely not in my price range, I'm hoping to keep the build as cheap as possible. Hopefully under 5k.

Thanks for the reply.
 
#15 ·
Those Toyos can go on 'vette 17x11s, which you can get from OEWheels for $150 each. Then you can put them on the stock 8.5, which can be built to hold 800 HP. But the LM7 can go past 1000 if you keep it out of detonation.
I love the sleeper, but I love the third-gens more, sure the cops watch more, but they can understand a fast 'bird easier than they can consider a fast grandma car safe at speed. In their minds, the 'bird is inherently more capable. And since most of them are still under 200 HP, they still work for humiliating Lamborghinis. Still very very fun.
 
#18 ·
80lb are all you're going to need to fold the rods like coat hangers on that 5.3. It will occur somewhere prior to 800whp on the 2nd to 4th attempt for 1000hp.

If you really want to hit 1000 hp, whether at the crank or wheels, then you need to lose the stock rods and pistons and be prepared to be well over 25psi. And if you are a serious chassis builder then you'll know the difference between 600 whp and 800 whp, but for the average schmo like me the difference between 500 and 750 whp is a dyno graph. Getting that to hook requires a talented chassis guy with alot more knowledge than me. And on the street, forget it, once you hit 500 boosted whp you can basically break any tire loose at at most any rpm and speed - yes speed. Rolling burnouts at 50+ mph are possible and just as possibly lethal.

Ummm, I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but be safe kid. I don't want to see you kill yourself.
I'll give you an example , my son and I are trying to get 500whp and 20 mpg from a turbo'd 327 in a G-body. We are very close to the HP and the car, that weighs 3700lbs, is a handful with 10" street tires. In the rain, forget about - DO NOT STEP ON IT. The Yukon posi on wet roads is a 'be ready to steer' at all times before it ever gets in to boost. And at 10 psi you hope it breaks free and doesn't have one wheel grab and also slows down so you can keep it in the road. You're car will be worse I'll guess.

Most people who haven't been around turbos don't realize how hard 500 hp hits. 500hp NA vs 500 boosted are not the same. And you're talking about 1000? See what happens at 7-800 before you worry about 1000. FWIW, you'll be at 125lb + or staged injection to hit 1000hp, but that is a strip only build. And you'll need a mess of other upgrades to hit 1000 to the chassis, suspension, trans, rear, seat, etc..

Good luck - Jim
 
#19 ·
Thank you very much for the advice, I unfortunately can't drive anyways.

I am legally blind so I can't get a license no matter what I do.

My dad will end up driving the car, he's a lot more experienced than I am anyways. I'll stick to my tractor, 18mph top speed on that beast but it feels like 70.

I'm glad you and your son are working on a project together. My dad hates working in the garage. Luckily he likes video games so we can do that together.

Best of luck with your build.
 
#21 ·
Thanks for steering me in the right direction, there are a ton of options out there for this one.

What would you guys recommend to get this going properly?

I need to connect my lm7 engine to my th400 transmission, I read that you can't just bolt the old torque converter to the newer engine and that you need some kind of adapter?

Has anyone hooked one of these up before and what did you use?

Also I've been thinking it'd be easier to hook up twin turbos than to plumb the exhaust manifolds together, what do you think?

Could I use a single boost controller to change the boost on both sides of the engine? I already have two wastegates sitting around.
 
#22 ·
Summit Racing® LS Flexplate Spacers SUM-704000 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
Crank adapter for the TH350 or TH400 Flexplate.

Builing a crossover pipe is not that challenging if yo have the room. And you should have all kinds of room in your Caprice. Flip the manifolds and have flanges welded onto the outlets for your crossover. Very easy.

Running twins isn't much harder either. And it's actually easier if you're going to skip the intercooler goto running Meth injection. Twins look cooler, but require more parts and really don't do much different than a single. But if you want to upgrade the turbo, then twins means you have two to upgrade (that's why I run a single:thumbup:).
 
#23 ·
Sorry for the wall of links, but as you've probably noticed you guys definitely know more about these things than I do. I'd really appreciate if you looked through them to see if what I have will work or not.

If you think that this setup will at least work then I'll put the orders in for the parts and hopefully be working on the car soon. I know that some of these parts aren't the highest quality pieces on the market so I'm not going to be upset with anyone if I order them and something breaks.

I'm just into building the car for fun, like I said earlier I can't even drive. I just like to work on stuff. So if something goes wrong that's just a little more work to do in the garage and that's okay with me. Sorry for the text bomb, hopefully this will be one of my last posts full of questions and the next ones will just be progress pics and burnouts for your enjoyment.

flexplate (TCI Machined Flexplates 399754)

converter (Summit Racing® Torque Converters SUM-G2699)

adapter (Summit Racing® LS Flexplate Spacers SUM-704000)

springs (PAC Racing 1200 Series Valve Springs PAC-1218)

fuel pump (Aeromotive A1000 Fuel Pumps 11101)

efi regulator (Aeromotive Extreme Flow EFI Fuel Pressure Regulators 13134)

head gaskets (Chevrolet Performance Composition Head Gaskets 12589226)

radiator (Griffin Direct Fit Radiator Combos CU-00008LS)


Not from summit
computer (LS1 24x modified MicroSquirt® ECU with Plug and Play harness - EFI Source)

methanol injection (Stage 2 Boost Cooler Water-Methanol Injection System)

gt45 turbo (GT45 T4 V Band) or maybe twins

80# injectors (Siemens Deka 80lb EV1 High Impedance Fuel Injector 8)
 
#24 ·
LS MicroSquirt Package - EFI Source

I'd go with this becuase it includes the 3 bar map sensor and the 80lb Siemens. It's a little cheaper and EFIsource has a good rep with injectors.

I always get injectors from Southbay fuel Injectors as they are good, honest people that stand behind their product. I guess I'm saying I'd steer clear of the E-bay injectors. Remember, as I mentioned previously, those 80lb'ers are going to be able to get you around 800 crank hp which is light of your 1000 hp goal. You'll need 120-127lb to get to 1000hp.

And you are aware that you'll have no IAC control with the microsquirt? Which isn't a cancel Christmas issue, but be advised. Have you been over to the Sloppy wiki page? If not, then it's some great reading for what you are trying to do. He has actually made a HP recipe for a solid 650-700+ wheel HP build.
 
#25 ·
I'm all for buying more stuff from fewer places and I love to support a good store.

You say not having IAC control isn't a deal breaker , I've done a bit of reading and if I'm not wrong it helps with starting and idling the engine.

How do you work without it? Do I just give it a little throttle when starting to give it more air?

I used to have to pump the gas to get my dune buggy going, but that thing had an ancient VW engine in it.
 
#26 ·
The IAC functions as the choke on a carb. As the car warms up, then the choke comes off an it remains open all the time after that. The IAC functions mostly in the same manner. Not using it will make the mtor not want to stay idling when it's cold for about 30 seconds or so. You'll have to hold your foot on the throttle slightly to keep he motor running. Once the car is warmed up, it should operate pretty well at idle.

If you want to run the IAC, then you need an MS2 or MS3 (preferred). The MS2 will handle the spark in the same manner as the microsquirt I believe, whereas the MS3 will handle the spark the same way GM does. Also, EFI source has the Goldbox option which is truly the cat's meow for what you are trying to do. The Goldbox is a plug n play MS3 built for an LS. It can be setup to do most everything from Nitrous, meth injection control, to running a boost controller, 2 step, traction control, 8 or 10 programmable outputs, IAC/stepper idle motor, launch control, fans, air conditioning etc., etc.
 
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