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Old 11-26-2005, 04:44 PM
X711
 
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Buffing Out Single Stage Paint "From a Production Shop Perspective"

Perhaps some of the Body Shop Folks can chime in on this one.

When a car is painted with single stage paint typically it will have some orange peel or dust particles in the finish after it drys. What methods are the body shops using to flatten and buff the paint out to a presentable shine, other than color sanding with fine grit sandpaper and water and then buffing.

"Color sanding might be ideal, but not so if time is critical"

I am interested in this process as to color sand a car can take allot of time.
So perhaps there is a good reliable method to achieve OEM or better than
a OEM finish.

I have been thinking that perhaps they compound the surface first and proceed from there, but I am not too sure. Hints or specific products that
work would be welcome.

Thanks in advance for your help.

X

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Old 11-26-2005, 08:37 PM
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well from a production standpoint, no one is using ss paint first off... it is base clear for the production shop... second when you need to remove peel or dirt you are going to do so by sanding and then buffing... If you dont like sanding you will never like body work or paint work... It is a hundred hours plus of sanding sanding sanding.... We are professional sanders
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Old 11-26-2005, 10:12 PM
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BondoKing, I appreciate your opinion but it does not address my question.

Anyone got additional info ?

Thanks X
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Old 11-26-2005, 10:43 PM
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There are no question marks in your initial post, but I think you are asking if there is a way to eliminate orange peel and dirt besides color sanding. There is only one other way that I know, and that is to do a really nice clean spray job.

Seriously, just compounding a fresh paint job won't really do much to improve things, it's actually a detriment to gloss unless you spend enough time with finer compounds and glazes. I wouldn't want to go through all of that unless I needed to color sand, in my experience the buffing takes longer than the sanding if you are doing it right and not hiding swirl marks with hand glaze.

Maybe you could rephrase your question? I might help more if I understood what you wanted!
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Old 11-26-2005, 11:15 PM
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Hi CrashTech. To re phrase my question.

How would one go about removing mild orange peel and dust
from single stage paint, Other than color sanding the paint with sand paper
and water.

I agree that a really nice spray job is best but sadly for me I ain't that good
at painting yet but getting there slowly and learning lots thanks to this BBS.

Its kind of funny spraying SS urethane based paint. Its almost like they put the peel in the paint for free when you buy it. lol.

Basically I was trying to skip a step in the process to save time if possible.

Thanks... X
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Old 11-27-2005, 05:50 AM
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X.... I think what you are looking for, you won't find. I know of no way to convince that stuff to leave the paint by itself. It will have to be sanded to be removed as far as I know. then again, I don't use SS, and don't know of a shop here that does.

Aaron
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Old 11-27-2005, 06:25 AM
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Sanding and polishing single stage follows the same steps as clearcoat except theres no clear to worry about cutting thin, Single stage paint systems can cure very hard and hence be tough to buff discouraging many from the endevor however the results can boggle minds.
There is no skipping steps...
First 1000
then 2000
then the wool pad
then the whitefoam pad
then the grey foam

wax on wax off.

A clean spray area is key and once in a while there perfect that's when you get hooked if you get it right a couple times ..
Hang in there ..


http://www.a2zautoforums.com/showthr...3277#post33277




etc.. etc..
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Old 11-27-2005, 07:18 AM
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Like they all said, wetsand and buff is only way unless you have a very clean booth and can get good enough to spray it slick.

IMO:
Single stage is not faster or cheaper than base/clear.
Buffing will take twice as long, if you have to re-shoot a panel it will be harder and more expensive to do and depending on color you may have match problems even if out of same can.

Also the window for buffing, (depending on paint used) should be done in 24-48 hours to make the job easier for you.

Where as base you can spot in real easy, this is especially handy for the small gouges and scratches we get in assembly of the vehicle.
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:59 AM
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Well, you don't actually have to wet sand by hand. Here's a thread that talks about color sanding with a DA!
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Old 11-27-2005, 10:50 AM
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SS can be faster than BC/CC IF you know that the color match's(experience or sprayout panels on hand). 2 maybe 3 coats of SS compared to 2 to 3 coats of base followed by 2 coats of clear. Many will argue this but any paint rep or tech will tell you that SS is the faster method WHEN the color match's. My experience and sprayouts allow me this option. I know that not everyone has this option but you could IF you take the time to make sprayouts and catalog them.

Now as far as dirt and peel. You have 2 options, 1; sand and polish with whatever method you choose be it wet or dry machine or hand.Running a wheel on the paint with no sanding will remove any haze that might be on the job but WILL NOT slick up peel or dirt. Lacquer could be flowed a little bit with a polisher by getting hot and "flowing" it out but that takes some skill. 2; Starting with the sealer(if needed) you must apply it as slick as possible nibbing dirt as you go. SS can be nibbed although I don't recommend it. Correct air pressure,distance from panel,technique are all combined to achieve a level dirt free job. Of course, you also have to keep in mind the clean up on the vehicle prior to painting and the area you will be painting in be it booth or open shop. All paints have a "texture" to them whether it be by design or by the painter. Our goal in the collision industry is to match the factory finish which,by the way, are not even or slick. Most restro guys I know want the jobs sanded slick. I don't know about anyone else.
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Old 11-27-2005, 11:05 AM
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At work they spray a lot of single stage imron, and they do panel paint with it often. The painters are pretty good at tinting and usually get the color matching pretty well save a really faded finish. It takes someone experienced to pull it off, and know what tints to add. Its pretty much the same the steps you take wetsanding and buffing if its clear or single stage you are doing. Single stage you may be able to use a little more course grit to start out with, but I agree with all the others, no way you are going to accomplish getting rid of peel and dirt if it didn't spray out the way you want without sanding prior to buffing. Like mentioned either a water bug sander or da will save some muscle. I still do a majority of mine by hand. If you plan on doing this work, you better be able to tolerate sanding. No longer how long or many years you've been doing it, if working in a shop you will be sanding unless you get a job in the office and sit behind a desk and deal with customers. Even some of those guys may be delegated to sanding depending on the size and nature of the shop, many were once working in the shop having fun sanding. Most stages of bodywork require sanding.
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Old 11-27-2005, 11:06 AM
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Hey guys, thanks for the follow up, I personally like the SS paint I think on
a older style car it looks more realistic than the base coat clear coat system.
This is not to say there is anything wrong with base / clear.

Milo pretty much hit the nail on the head so I will follow his methods without
missing a step. "Thanks Man" BTW The shots of the bike parts your polishing
in the pics look truely amazing. Thats some very nice work.

The paint I am using is made by Valspar, it goes on pretty ok but since im new to this I am hitting a few bumps in the road but no show stoppers so far. After sanding the car flat I can at that stage either buff the paint out to a shine or leave it dull and apply clear for the shine. The tech sheet indicates that the paint can be cleared for added DOI if needed. But as above I will
go for the cut then buff hence no clear for this car.

All in All this is a good learning experience. "Man I would love a real booth"

Christmas is coming, now perhaps if I can come up with some real good
excuses, the wife may spring for a booth, lol. "No chance im dreaming "


Thanks again. X
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Old 11-27-2005, 11:21 AM
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Yeah, ask for a nice downdraft with heated make up air. A nice booth would be nice to paint in everyday, painting out in the garage makes things a bit tougher, but even when I did paint in shops most of the booths weren't great. Miss the one they had at school, sure makes things easier and more comfortable to the painter. I don't think I will find 100 grand to buy a great one, just can't seem to grow that money tree. But for a hobbiest who only does maybe a few cars a year, don't think that booth would pay you back, so people adapt to what they have to work with.
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Old 11-27-2005, 04:46 PM
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Yeah, the Old money tree we all need one of them Right now I am garage bound. The only real problem is the OverSpray dust, It winds up everywhere
but is pretty easy to vacume up.

I should start into cut and buff on the car in a few days so it will be interesting
to see how it goes.

Shall keep you all posted.

Thanks... X
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Old 11-28-2005, 05:13 AM
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What color are you using?And is it a metallic?
It matters when buffing out SS paint, like acrylic enamel.
I've buffed a lot of acrylic enamel paint but I always used hardener in it.
Even with the hardener it took weeks to get hard enough to buff
out properly. I could do it in 7 days but I had to fight soft paint.
With enamel if you sand through the top thin layer and exposed the
metallic or pigment of the paint then it would loose it's gloss very
quickly due to oxidation. That's why I always used a enamel clear
over the color, just so I could buff it.
Some colors like blue are next to impossible to cut and buff without
having "rings". You really need a clear coat for buffing.
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