[ap72]

Originally Posted by Tony_ONeil

Now that I was completely unaware of; thanks for the info, I'll do some more checking, maybe a 350 would be an easy way to go; I was just thinking the high rpms were only available from a shorter stroke 302, and I wanted to try road tracks with the car.

That's why I said it makes no sense to build a 302. If you want a high revver go with a 350 with a 6" rod and light weight piston, go with a solid cam (roller or flat tappet), upgrade the oiling system (especially the drainback which is often forgotten), and if you're driving it on the street I would go EFI.

A stock 350 crank can handle 7,000 RPM as long as you have good balance and no detonation. The next problem becomes finding a transmission that can handle it, assuming a power peak at 6,500 RPM 500hp isn't that hard to achieve but a T5 can't handle that power.

Another option is dropping in a 5.3L LS engine with a cam, lifters, intake, and headers.

[hpete]

8000 is screaming, the stress on your bottom end and your wallet increases by the square of the rpm.

[painted jester]

Originally Posted by Tony_ONeil

Now that I was completely unaware of; thanks for the info, I'll do some more checking, maybe a 350 would be an easy way to go; I was just thinking the high rpms were only available from a shorter stroke 302, and I wanted to try road tracks with the car.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...e/viewall.html

I thought you might like this article its a good read I built & ran 302s 9000 rpm and high rpm 350s 7500 rpm. if you can find pink rods their a good choice too but getting rare!! (A 302 Windsor the gentleman mentioned is a high revver too, Chevy 302s torque comes in at a higher rpm then a 350 revver or a 383 , and a 350 hp 302 would not give you a lot of torque to move a heavier car!!! You have to think about torque not just rpm. the longer your stroke the more torque you will have at lower rpms!! My 407 hp. 302s torque peeks is at 5200 rpm at 372 lbs!! and 407 hp at 6200 and red lines at 7800 rpm. With a different solid cam and dual quad tunnel ram Rpm and torque climb dramatically but street-ability drops just as dramatically, Running 110 octane fuel, running restrictions in the oil gallies,etc high revving engines need a lot of maintenance By a very well trained mechanic , a pm tear down at least once a year or if you drag it you should do a tear down every week ,302s are set at very precise tolerances, you cant build one expecting much longevity with $13 pistons like a 383, pistons are gona cost you at least $60.00 (cheep) each minimum , valve train must be light and very strong youll have more money in your valve train then most people have in their engines! I love 302s and wouldnt want to talk you out of it!! Because once you put your foot into it you'll never get that feeling back or the pride of a little ford or chevy 302 you built eating 383s & big blocks for breakfast ( except for 396s they revv'ed like a small block)!!! I have crank journals hard chromed for high revvers, and my rods polished. And dont forget about windage if you run a standard low rpm windage tray on a high revver your oil will suspend above the tray at high rpm and youll also need crank scrapers and an anti cavitation oil pump! or dry sump!! To put the money into a 302 with only 350 HP is a waist, the max fly wheel hp in the books & dealer lit. was way under rated and when they went to net H.P. it was under rated even more and they took H.P. readings below peek at lower rpms!! Example:1967 290 HP at 5800 rpm and 290 ft lb at 4200 but when actually dino'ed like at Penskys for track rules stock with no porting or other mods they dinod over 400 HP and with the cross ram over 450 HP and today with the new induction systems and technology they can well surpass that! Maybe their cracking 500 hp now?

My 302 looks like every other small block out there no one can tell whether its a 302 or 383 so there is really nothing different or novel about it! Unless I run around telling every one! If your running a heavy car I wouldnt build a 302! But in a light car its a great combination!! OH heres a tip: If your running a 302 at the track and its a stick shift run the heaviest fly wheel you can ( the reciprocating weight of the heavy fly wheel at high rpm launches or shift points will help transfer power to the wheels with less loss of torque at the crank)

I hope you dont mind my opinions or the web page I posted, Because You have very good answers already on your thread and mine wasnt really necessary, Good luck on your build

Jester

[starnest]

Conventional wisdom espoused, need not be repeated.

I will however give a nod to the original DZ 302 configuration built specifically for competition in Trans Am racing circa 1969. This engine made huge power and screamed bloody hell at WOT.

With all due respect to my brother Mike, he built a Camaro drag car using a stock 302 block, pistons, rods; the heads were worked by HM, he built the trans at Transgo when he worked there, and he shoved a Dana with 5.86 gears in the rear. The car clocked 10:28 on fifth mile tracks, and easily turned in excess of 8000 rpms. This was back in about '73.

Since Mike passed away a few years ago, he is not able to defend so I'll not question what he told me then. I can say I've seen the car smoke the tires and lift the front end at the same time, with slicks on it left the line hard and carried the wheels up for most of 300 feet. When the car shifted to second it was a handful to drive. It was the quickest sbc Camaro around back then.

Tony - listen to the good advice of knowledgable people, then go and build what you want to build. If you use good parts, take your time and do things right, you will be able to build a stout little 302 for your project.

[painted jester]

Originally Posted by starnest

Conventional wisdom espoused, need not be repeated.

I will however give a nod to the original DZ 302 configuration built specifically for competition in Trans Am racing circa 1969. This engine made huge power and screamed bloody hell at WOT.

With all due respect to my brother Mike, he built a Camaro drag car using a stock 302 block, pistons, rods; the heads were worked by HM, he built the trans at Transgo when he worked there, and he shoved a Dana with 5.86 gears in the rear. The car clocked 10:28 on fifth mile tracks, and easily turned in excess of 8000 rpms. This was back in about '73.

Since Mike passed away a few years ago, he is not able to defend so I'll not question what he told me then. I can say I've seen the car smoke the tires and lift the front end at the same time, with slicks on it left the line hard and carried the wheels up for most of 300 feet. When the car shifted to second it was a handful to drive. It was the quickest sbc Camaro around back then.

Tony - listen to the good advice of knowledgable people, then go and build what you want to build. If you use good parts, take your time and do things right, you will be able to build a stout little 302 for your project.

Starnest
I'm very sorry about your brother! Could you pm me and tell me what he said about the 302 if its not too personal! I hope Im not being disrespectful but there aren't many people who ever drove one and dont have the knowledge or experience to compare it or argue and ridicule the people who have driven them or want to build one! but I drove & pit crewed on many fast cars and none gave me the suprise or thrill of the DZ 302! Im building another 302 for my wifes 79 camaro project old skool DZ specs.

Jester

[starnest]

Tony - I'm sorry, but Mike passed away a long time ago and he never really told me more than what I've already said.

Painted Jester's comments are on point, you should be able to get good information from him. Keep in mind that the race versions of the 302 were a long ways from stock. Still the stock 302 was a better than average street engine in a lighter weight car like a Camaro.

If I was building a street car today, I would go with the 350, just because you can get more bang for the buck. But that doesn't matter, you should build the engine you want (regardless of what I think).

Wait a minute, isn't that a big block I'm putting in my El Camino, why yes it is. Now why would I build that engine instead of the 350? Oh yeah, that's the engine I wanted to build, regardless of all the go with a 350 advice, I chose to build a bored out, domed piston, 454 truck engine; it might not be as good as other bbc builds, but that's ok, it'll be my build, my way.

[starnest]

Jester - great article

I did note the $8500 price tag, and for the money a used LS1 with a few tweaks could make better power and torque on pump gas. So, a dose of reality for all who said the 350 was a better choice - you are right.

But, Tony should build the engine he wants, from here on let's all endeavor to help him succeed. Good luck Tony!

[painted jester]

Originally Posted by starnest

Jester - great article

I did note the $8500 price tag, and for the money a used LS1 with a few tweaks could make better power and torque on pump gas. So, a dose of reality for all who said the 350 was a better choice - you are right.

But, Tony should build the engine he wants, from here on let's all endeavor to help him succeed. Good luck Tony!

Starnest: $8000 is pretty cheep for a 302 screamer its almost all summit parts too, you can build a good 7000 rpm 350 cheaper! That was the point And I agree he needs to build what he wants! Im really not trying to talk him into anything or out of anything ! I thought I was coming through on that meaning of what I wrote And I did mention a high reving 350 LOL H e ll I could of mentioned an Allison aircraft engine now there's power!!!LOL

Same from me tony good luck!! Jester

[Tony_ONeil]

Starnest and Jester,

I am very sorry to hear about your brother. It's never easy to lose someone close to you. Thank you for taking the time to provide some encouragement based on his achievements with his car.

Thank you both very much for your posts, you've both given me a lot to think about. It seems like an 8000rpm 302 will require too much upkeep/maintenance so I'm going to have to back it down a little because I want to be able to drive the car daily without having to do periodic break downs to ensure she runs smoothly. While a drag car would be fun; I don't want too much HP; if the car could be driven daily, and dip down into the 12second, possibly 11second range (with nitrous?) I think that would be more than enough for me

If I were to go with a more "stock spec" 302; but gave it upgraded parts like a hydraulic roller cam and roller rockers and a better than stock, but not too extreme, valvetrain; what is feasible for HP and a max rpm while still maintaining the daily driver aspect?

Thank you again,
Tony

[ap72]

Originally Posted by Tony_ONeil

Starnest and Jester,

I am very sorry to hear about your brother. It's never easy to lose someone close to you. Thank you for taking the time to provide some encouragement based on his achievements with his car.

Thank you both very much for your posts, you've both given me a lot to think about. It seems like an 8000rpm 302 will require too much upkeep/maintenance so I'm going to have to back it down a little because I want to be able to drive the car daily without having to do periodic break downs to ensure she runs smoothly. While a drag car would be fun; I don't want too much HP; if the car could be driven daily, and dip down into the 12second, possibly 11second range (with nitrous?) I think that would be more than enough for me

If I were to go with a more "stock spec" 302; but gave it upgraded parts like a hydraulic roller cam and roller rockers and a better than stock, but not too extreme, valvetrain; what is feasible for HP and a max rpm while still maintaining the daily driver aspect?

Thank you again,
Tony

your hydraulic roller cam is going to limit your RPM, so much so that running a 3.48 or 3.75 stroke will be fine. It's also a LOT cheaper as already said to build a 350 or 383 that can take 7,000 RPM (the limits of a good hydraulic roller set up).

Also as already noted a LS take out engine is MUCH cheaper, makes great power, better mileage, more durable, etc. so getting a used 5.3L and swapping a few parts may be a better option assuming you have no strong reason to run an out dated engine.

[starnest]

Originally Posted by painted jester

That was the point ... And meaning of what I wrote

I got that, my comment on building a 350 was a nod to all the others posting; I think that building a screaming DZ 302 is very cool.

My comment on the cost, relative to building the 302 , I've built my bbc with less than $5k, of course I still have a few items to take care of and to put it in the car I need headers, exhaust, rebuild/replace radiator, new front springs, disk brake upgrade ... In the end I will have spent more than $8k, but I'll also be well past 550hp and 600ftlb.

[painted jester]

It was great to be of help Tony , You'll be very happy with the choice you made and with the money you save you'll be able to get little presents for yourself ( Like a few sets of wrinkle walls)

Jester

[L79vette]

[QUOTE=painted jester To put the money into a 302 with only 350 HP is a waist, the max fly wheel hp in the books & dealer lit. was way under rated and when they went to net H.P. it was under rated even more and they took H.P. readings below peek at lower rpms!! Example:1967 290 HP at 5800 rpm and 290 ft lb at 4200 but when actually dino'ed like at Penskys for track rules stock with no porting or other mods they dinod over 400 HP and with the cross ram over 450 HP and today with the new induction systems and technology they can well surpass that! Maybe their cracking 500 hp now?
Jester[/QUOTE]

The 450HP 302s were heavily prepped. 12.5:1 compression, off-road cam, heavily ported heads, specially designed headers to go with the cam and cross-ram. They had been making 425HP with the LT1-style dual plane and 780CFM carb. The 302 is a wonderful story, but we can't make it out to be better than it was. Traco-built race engines made for Roger Penske dyno'd at 458HP on the sheet I saw in a book about the cross ram. I am sure they must have kept something in their pockets.
The little 302 was indeed under-rated, because it wanted to go way past 5800RPM. Check out this article where they built a DZ302, L76 327, and LT1 350.
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...g/viewall.html
They all made just a shade over 350HP. This makes sense, because the heads were practially the same, and the cams were practically the same. The change in displacement just moved around what RPM the peak power came on at.

[painted jester]

Sure we had our secrets, but its silly to build a 302 with only 350 hp today unless its a concoarse car!!! when a 327 0r 350 can put down more horse power and more torque cheaper!!! and at penske we dynoed a 302 for Mark Donihues car for trans am at 475 hp!!! and that was still a cry from max hp because of the durability issues from the rigors of long hrs of non stop raceing !!! I have no Idea what the max hp on the little 302s would be! I dont think any one has taken them to the limit!!! And when you bought the 302 DZ package the headers were packaged and in the trunk at some dealers! It was up to the owner to install em.

Jester

[painted jester]

http://www.z28camaro.com/oldrel.html

Check out the specs at the bottom of the page I just posted! Youll like the read and its late and Im tired, So if I already posted it on here (LOL) you can LOL

Stock champion in 2005, 302 single 4 barrel 780 cfm, (NO CROSS RAM) .480" solid cam no head work (maybe a few little legal tricks: If its not against the rules do it !!!), 456 hp !!!

Jester