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Old 02-24-2004, 11:07 AM
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Bush on marriage!

I think he made a few valid points in his speech.

Marriage being a part of propogating our species isn't one of them. If that was so then we wouldn't even be here. I don't think that the knuckledragging cavemen had formal ceremonies to symbolize a union between males and females before "getting they groove on".

He wants to disassociate marriage between men and women from same sex "civil unions" by adding an amendment to the constitution. Leaving it up to the states to create terms for "civil unions".

A few couples I have spoken to regard same sex marriage as a degradation to the concept of marriage. They don't want to share something they consider sacred with people that do not represent marriage as the beginnings of a family. That's like saying "This is our club and you can't be a part of it." Others could give a **** less if gays get married or not.

So far the biggest argument is over finances when one of the "partners" croaks. If that's the biggest concern then I say let the states that choose to do so make the necessary laws so that gay couples are protected in that respect.

I may be wrong here but isn't the concept of marriage born of religious pretenses? If that's the case then shouldn't we leave it up to the religions of each couple to decide if marriage is within the guidelines set forth by they're religions. Agnostics and atheists are on they're own.

I don't think that a separation of church and state can be fully realized here, unless we devise a legal union of sorts to satisfy same sex couples desire for security. One that is outside "the bond of holy matrimony" to satisfy the majorities desire for differentiation between the two.

Maybe I oughtta just shut up and let the smart people do all the talking.

Larry

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Old 02-24-2004, 11:34 AM
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If you are looking at it in the religious sense, then I don't understand how a "pastor" can honestly marry gay people. Most religions say marriage is the union between a man and a woman. What's next? Are people going to be marrying animals soon??? I just don't agree with them getting married.
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:40 AM
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Ditto 'cuda. There are some whacked out gay pastors out there that somehow come to the conclusion that gay marriage is okay. Biblically this is just not the case. I guess they leave out certain parts in their teachings....Sodom and Gomorrah come to mind...

Chris
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:47 AM
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I agree 'cuda. I think this should be put to a vote among the people. If the outcome isn't what they want then let 'em try it somewhere else.

I'm not saying that anyone outside of the majority should leave the country. I'm just saying that the tolerance of the lifestyle that they choose should be enough. I'm thankful that we have a society that is free enough to accept that some people are different.

There are places where gay people would be killed or exiled for what they are. I don't agree with this, I'm just stating a fact.

Live and die as you choose. Just don't shove it in my face and try to make me like it.
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:55 AM
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I got in an arguement a while back with a lady I worked with. She of course was saying it was okay to be gay and that they should get all the say rights, blah, blah, blah. You know, that old chestnut. She asked my opinion and I told her flat out: The Bible says it is wrong to be gay. That was my opinion. She proceeded to lash out at me and finally said, "Isn't that the same Bible that says you should love your neighbor as you love yourself?" My reply is simply this about gay people. I don't mind you as a person. It is the ACTION that I don't agree with. As a religious person, I do not believe anyone can be born that way because God would not put you in a position where you were living in constant sin with no possible way of getting out of it. No sin is greater than another though. Just my opinions.........
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1meancuda
If you are looking at it in the religious sense, then I don't understand how a "pastor" can honestly marry gay people. Most religions say marriage is the union between a man and a woman.
Just a couple points of clarification (but not argument). Most religious denominations in the U.S. are currently engaged in intense debate on this very issue. There is no universal agreement among clergy, lay leaders, or church leaders on the issue. To say at this point that "most churches" or "most religions" are in agreement on any point related to the gay marriage issue would not be accurate. This is not to say that Cuda's personal opinion on the issue is incorrect - but it would be incorrect for him to claim he is "on the side of the church" - since the churches themselves are in great turmoil over the issue and do not themselves have a unified position on the matter.

TurboS10 notes that "There are some whacked out gay pastors out there that somehow come to the conclusion that gay marriage is okay. Biblically this is just not the case. I guess they leave out certain parts in their teachings....Sodom and Gomorrah come to mind..."

To be accurate, there are thousands of pastors who take the personal position that gay marriage is acceptable - and very few of them are gay themselves. Thousands of pastors also take the position that gay marriage is NOT acceptable. And nearly ALL pastors struggle with this issue nearly every day. But please don't say that a pastor is "whacked out" simply because they find support for certain aspects of gay marriage. This is a deeply difficult matter for pastors just as it is for individuals like you and I.

The matter of "biblical correctness" is at the heart of the debate among biblical scholars. Dozens of books have been published on the subject with both sides quoting chapter and verse in support of their arguments. Among the most notable biblical experts today there is no unanimity whatsoever on the subject of where the Bible stands on the issue of gay marriage or gay lifestyle. Thus to say "Biblically this is just not the case" would be difficult to support without excluding a massive amount of biblical scholarship which has been published on the issue. I would simply caution against such generalities.

Also, regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, this story is rarely if ever used any more by biblical scholars on the issue of homosexuality. The majority of writing now says this story has to do with a general disregard of Old Testament Jewish Law and that the attempted attack on the two angels who visited S&G had to do with "degradation" of the angels of God rather than some sort of rampant homosexuality. There are, in fact, a number of other verses of the Bible which ARE used extensively in support of the argument that homosexuality is contrary to Christian belief - it's just not the Sodom and Gomorrah story.

Again, let me state clearly that none of my points should be taken to support or undermine the opinions expressed by Cuda, TurboS10 and others. These are all valid opinions and I respect them. But they remain their personal opinions. I only want to caution against using "the church" or "the Bible" as putting forth some sort of definitive, black and white position on gays or gay marriage. At best what we can say at the moment is that churches and biblical scholars are struggling with this issue just as much as you and I might struggle with this issue.
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:25 PM
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cboy, I will agree that perhaps I should have worded that better. By the way, I work in Rhinelander. I believe you probably know where that is!

IIRC, the crowd at S&G came to Lot's house and told him to bring out the strangers so that they could have sex with them or lie with them (I guess depending on what version you are reading from). Also, isn't there some type of laws listed in Leviticus that are about not sleeping with those of the same sex? Again, I'm no Bible scholar and have not read the Old Testament in some time, but I kind of remember those things being there. Maybe I'll have to re-read it tonight. I would be interested to see where in the Bible it says that is is not wrong to be gay though.
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:41 PM
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The guy who lives right next door to me in my house is gay. He's a pretty good guy and we have some laughs. We get a long pretty well because neither one of us have any lingering issues about sexuality. He works hard, pays his bills, treats people with respect and can make friends with gay or strait people of either sex. He's generally a pretty darned good guy.

I think the first thing people have to combat when the issue of gay anything comes up is their fear of hearing that word. Quite honestly, there are many people in this world who really just can't handle talking about it because they probably have latent sexual issues them selves. This is the guy you mention something to and he says "dude, that is so gross. I freakin hate ****, I wish I didn't have to look at them." Don't respond to my post saying you don't know anybody like this, there are hordes of people who say that line, probably about half of all men. That, I think, is what turns this debate into a crap shoot.

As far as what the bible says, I don't know how you interpret that passage, but it seems a little far fetched to use it as the basis for an argument against homosexuality. Anyway, you can't argue theology and philosophy so I guess that's just my option.

I guess my overall point is there are a lot of people who just need to work on having an clear, open, unprejudiced mind toward homosexuals. After they accomplish that, THEN they can argue about the details of law and code.

Just my .02

K
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:41 PM
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Cuda...the passage you are thinking of in Leviticus in 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

However some argue that this passage only applies to the Old Testament. However it is mentioned in the New Testament too.
1 Corinthians 6:9 says that "homosexual offenders...will not enter the kingdom of God."
Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:7, and Ephesians 5:31 all say "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."
I don't think these passages leave too much room for error.

In my Biology II class we recently discussed homosexuality as a genetic disease. There may be reason to believe that genes do have something to do with whether or not someone has homosexual tendencies just like it can affect whether or not someone is an alcoholic. However, just like alcoholism, one does not have to do it just because their genes point them in that direction. If an action is considered to be wrong or dangerous, it can be stopped.
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by killerformula
I think the first thing people have to combat when the issue of gay anything comes up is their fear of hearing that word. Quite honestly, there are many people in this world who really just can't handle talking about it because they probably have latent sexual issues them selves. This is the guy you mention something to and he says "dude, that is so gross. I freakin hate ****, I wish I didn't have to look at them." Don't respond to my post saying you don't know anybody like this, there are hordes of people who say that line, probably about half of all men. That, I think, is what turns this debate into a crap shoot.
Again, I do not agree with these people's actions, but I can respect them as people. I can't outrightly say I have gay friends, but I have gay people in my distant family and can honestly say that it doesn't scare me to sit down and shoot the breeze with them.

Quote:
Originally posted by cheezbay
Cuda...the passage you are thinking of in Leviticus in 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

However some argue that this passage only applies to the Old Testament. However it is mentioned in the New Testament too.
1 Corinthians 6:9 says that "homosexual offenders...will not enter the kingdom of God."
Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:7, and Ephesians 5:31 all say "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."
I don't think these passages leave too much room for error.
Thank you cheezbay. I have just recently began re-reading the Bible again and couldn't remember where those passages were. If anyone is looking at it from a Biblical stand-point, it can't get much more concrete or cut-and-dry than that.
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cheezbay
Cuda...the passage you are thinking of in Leviticus in 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

However some argue that this passage only applies to the Old Testament. However it is mentioned in the New Testament too.
1 Corinthians 6:9 says that "homosexual offenders...will not enter the kingdom of God."
Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:7, and Ephesians 5:31 all say "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."
I don't think these passages leave too much room for error.

In my Biology II class we recently discussed homosexuality as a genetic disease. There may be reason to believe that genes do have something to do with whether or not someone has homosexual tendencies just like it can affect whether or not someone is an alcoholic. However, just like alcoholism, one does not have to do it just because their genes point them in that direction. If an action is considered to be wrong or dangerous, it can be stopped.

Right on! I'm glad to see some people still read the Bible
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:27 PM
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I think that if we take a step back and look at the mechanics of the issue, everybody can be happy if gay people were allowed to marry.

If you are gay...
then you get to legally be with the one you choose to love. Your 'rights' as a citizen aren't being removed, and you can live your own 'normal' life with your partner. You can also have death benefits, tax breaks, and everything else that follows a traditional 'man & woman' marriage.

If you're not gay, but think it's wrong...
then patience is all you need. Everybody knows that you need a man and a woman to have a baby. Well, if 'being gay' is in your DNA, it's not going to get passed down. If you think being gay is a bad thing, then don't worry about it. As long as gay people can't pro-create, you should be able to teach younger generations the value of populating.

If you're not gay, and think it's ok...
congratulations You've just figured out the key to making yourself happy by not trying to fix other people's problems that don't affect you anyway.


MoocH
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:44 PM
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Sorry Mooch, but I don't buy your second argument that gay DNA won't be passed down. If you are a Biology major or have quite a bit of biology at least, you would understand how genetics work. Homosexual tendencies would, of course, be a recessive trait. To have these tendencies, one would have to have a mother and father that both passed down the recessive trait to him/her.
If a person just recieved one recessive trait for homosexuality and dominant trait for non-homosexuality, the dominant trait would be the one to show. For this reason, a single recessive trait can be passed down generation to generation without the trait ever appearing.
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:56 PM
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just my opinion or course

This is just an attempt to legitimatize sexual deviant behavior under the guise of a marriage vow?? The whole idea that gays would want to relate in society as a married couple is a disgrace to the idea of marriage. What will be next if this is allowed to continue unopposed? There are actions in nature that are contrary to nature and must not be allowed legitimacy in a proper society. The marriage of a man and a woman is proper and acceptable in nature but the man/man and woman/woman and man/animal and man/child or woman/child is not natural and therefore deviant behavior and should NOT be allowed. I think it is just plan wrong. God save us from this insanity!!


Tazz


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Old 02-24-2004, 03:54 PM
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RIGHT ON tm454

by allowing gay marriages, we are saying it's ok to be gay.

it's not ok, and I think the majority of the people don't think it's ok.

so lets put it to a vote, that's how our country is run.


if it passes, finish those hotrods soon boy's we ain't got long!
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