Calling the body work gurus (sand paper) - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Body - Exterior
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 04:48 AM
Hwyhogg's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Electrolytic rust removal
Last journal entry: 2.75 in..3.50 posi out
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Spring Hill, Florida
Posts: 493
Wiki Edits: 6

Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Calling the body work gurus (sand paper)

Ok, here's my outline for getting ready for paint:
1. take down to bare metal then hit with da using 220 grit, wipe down

2. Epoxy primer

3. use filler and sand till level, use glaze over filler, sand till level

4. spot prime over filler with epoxy

5. Use "high build" 2k primer, block sand (wet or dry ?)
6. apply top coat paint

My question is: what grit do I need to start shaping the filler and then what grit to finish the filler with? Also, what range of grit do I need to block out the high build primer before I apply paint?

One last thing; After wet-sanding primer, how long does it need to dry before paint? Sorry for long post,
James

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 05:39 AM
deadbodyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Stripping paint Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: augusta,ga.
Age: 54
Posts: 6,197
Wiki Edits: 11

Thanks: 28
Thanked 466 Times in 395 Posts
After grinding the metal first with a 36 grit disc I start sanding bondo with 36 paper...Unless I strip the whole car Then I'll da the metal with 80 and epoxy.When the epoxy has cured I'll da the epoxy with 80 again and start my first coat of bondo,I'll start by sanding my bondo with 36... Before I apply more I'll breeze over it with 80 and blow it off very, very well (to clean out any dust filled holes).On the second coat,a quick breeze over with 36 to knock down the half moon lift marks,then 80.... on the next coat....I apply polyester putty (easy sand) 80 that..... reapply putty, breeze over it with 80 guide coat,then 180.breeze over with 320 then prime,guide coat the primer then theres two ways to finish.... da with 320 and a very good quality hutchins da and paint or for real nice work, wet sand with with a block,320 ,400, reprime, 400 then 600 then shoot....guide coat is the key...I even guide coat bondo somethimes,its a big time saver... this is just my way, but there's many ways....

Last edited by deadbodyman; 01-24-2010 at 08:07 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 07:46 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Green Bay, WI
Age: 44
Posts: 2,073
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
I'd personally sand bare metal with 80 grit for more grip and to go a bit faster. Metal is hard and don't believe it scratches as easy as paint and primer using the same grit. If you will be epoxying, priming and sanding, an 80 grit scratch shouldn't really be a problem.

I too start sanding filler with 36 grit and once its straight either go over with 80, or get it all straight, then once straight in 36, apply a skim coat of filler (pressing tight and spreading as smooth as possible) and sand that with 80-180. Sometimes I will work down as fine as 180 if it won't be getting more primer and block sanding. The biggest thing to avoiding an 80 grit scratch in mudwork from showing up later is not hogging on the primer with no flash time between coats (but apply the first coat wet enough that you aren't just bridging the sandscratches), and giving the primer proper time to sit before sanding. If its just a small area of filler and if using a spot or finishing type filler, I'll just start right off with 80, since it sands easier and not as much to get straight. But I find using courser grits makes it much easier to get filler straight, not to mention faster. I normally only use 180 to block out my urethane primer, and use only that weather I only block the primer once or several times, and when things are straight and to my satisfaction, I wetsand the final coats of primer before paint with 400 or 600 depending on the base color and weather or not a metallic, that I am painting. Some start blocking courser and finish off finer, but 180 works for me. For most ordinary stuff, I only block the primer out once with 180, reapply a few coats of primer then final sand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 09:29 AM
deadbodyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Stripping paint Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: augusta,ga.
Age: 54
Posts: 6,197
Wiki Edits: 11

Thanks: 28
Thanked 466 Times in 395 Posts
Sounds like we went to the same school ,Ken.One more thing ,just to clarify,I'm of the opinion that primer shouldn't be used to fill anything deeper than a 180 scratch.These high build primers will cover 36 grit scratches and small dents.take a little more time with your bodywork (especially metalwork) and don't rely on the primer to do everything.regular urethane primer surfacer is all that's needed...Now there are some epoxy primers out there that will eliminate the need for a 2k urethane primer they fill and sand very well.and you wont have an unused half gallon of wasted urethane sitting around.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 10:29 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,160 Times in 1,024 Posts
Ok, I have to go nuts here a little, sorry DBM but grinding metal with 36 grit and thinking primers will fill 36 grit is SOOOOOO 1970's HOLY CRAP!

OH MY GOD, when I see guys at work grind the metal with a 50 grit I want to scream! That is WAY, WAY, WAY overkill! 80 grit sanded with a DA or killer is PLENTY, PLENTY and you aren't damaging the metal.

36 grit WILL cut THRU metal on an edge so fast it will make your head spin!

Check with Evercoat and they will tell you DO NOT even apply FILLER over anything coarser than 80 grit and that isn't even primer but the FILLER!

"Can" you fill 36 grit with urethane primer? Yes you "Can", but you are asking the primer to do WAY too much.

Do you know that we didn't even have 36 grit sand paper in the shop for a long time! After we had a problem a few years ago with some shrinkage the boss called Evercoat (I didn't believe him and called myself) and they said not to use anything coarser than 80 grit with their filler,before OR after. We then sent back all the 36 and 40 grit we had in the shop! Now, there is a little bit there that we use for emergency huge filler jobs, but 99% of the time 80 grit is the most coarse used.

To answer the original posters questions I agree 180 is what you leave filler in prior to paint. I will even go to 320 in a circular pattern to kill any sanding patterns from blocking so you can accurately feel your work. The 180 sand scratches can be deceiving and make you feel like you have high or low spots. More important, they can MASK high and low spots. A quick circular "rub" with 320 will kill all that so you can get a better feel.

But 80 grit on the filler, then a skim coat of polyester putty then a light block with 80 then 180 is it for me.


Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 01-24-2010 at 10:36 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 11:45 AM
deadbodyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Stripping paint Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: augusta,ga.
Age: 54
Posts: 6,197
Wiki Edits: 11

Thanks: 28
Thanked 466 Times in 395 Posts
HaHaHa,I don't know where you learnd to grind paint off to prep a dent for body work but Ill be done and in primer before you get your bondo on.LOL.and try screaming at a bodyman on this coast and see where your butt lands.Its the high build primers Ive seen "bodymen" "abusing" covering up 36 grit scratches,Ive seen that kind of cobbled up work at a lot of collision shops that were screwing the bodyman to pay the managements elevated self worth. You may want to reread what I wrote.Ive never heard or saw anyone in all the shops I've EVER worked in, grind paint off to prep a dent for bondo with anything over 40 grit especially when your tring to get through three coats of old paint and a 1/2" of building primer(not everything we work on is new),and if you don't have the ability or talent to grind paint off a car without grinding a hole and loosing your grinder you might want to try something else for a living,like office work ,where everything is so easy and only the pencil pushing estimate writers know what they're doing. Simply stating your way of doing things would be sufficient.personal attacks on another mans procedure is a sure way to bring a thread to an end with a childish argument and the poster learns nothing.My apologies to the poster.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 01:00 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,160 Times in 1,024 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
HaHaHa,I don't know where you learnd to grind paint off to prep a dent for body work but Ill be done and in primer before you get your bondo on.LOL.and try screaming at a bodyman on this coast and see where your butt lands.Its the high build primers Ive seen "bodymen" "abusing" covering up 36 grit scratches,Ive seen that kind of cobbled up work at a lot of collision shops that were screwing the bodyman to pay the managements elevated self worth. You may want to reread what I wrote.Ive never heard or saw anyone in all the shops I've EVER worked in, grind paint off to prep a dent for bondo with anything over 40 grit especially when your tring to get through three coats of old paint and a 1/2" of building primer(not everything we work on is new),and if you don't have the ability or talent to grind paint off a car without grinding a hole and loosing your grinder you might want to try something else for a living,like office work ,where everything is so easy and only the pencil pushing estimate writers know what they're doing. Simply stating your way of doing things would be sufficient.personal attacks on another mans procedure is a sure way to bring a thread to an end with a childish argument and the poster learns nothing.My apologies to the poster.
DBM, I have no idea why you throw the back handed remarks about estimators, what in the living hell does that have to do with this subject?

Listen, if I see a post where someone is telling someone to paint without a respirator or weld a HSS frame rail with a torch I am going to get a little serious. GRINDING paint off with a 36 Grit grinding disc is WRONG. I don't care who you are or what you think about me it is WRONG and shouldn't be in the conversation to a newbe who may mistake it for the right way.

I don't know if he has mentioned it in another post or something but you have no idea of what he is working on! It may be a friggin 2008 Impala for all you know, and you are telling him to take a grinder to his car?

Unless we KNOW we are dealing with severe problem with ton of paint and primer and filler or something he is removing a GRINDER with 36 shouldn't even be mentioned. And I have to tell you, even on an old car with the conditions you describe I STILL wouldn't touch it with a grinder and 36 grit, I did 20 or 30 years ago, but not in 2010.

You NEVER, EVER, EVER ask urethane primer to fill 36 grit scratches, PERIOD. It is WRONG, and that is that, no discussion.

You keep throwing the estimating crap at me. I have done EVERYTHING in this industry from detailing to restoration body and paint to collision body and paint to selling paint to teaching, to parts sales and acquisition to managing to shop ownership to estimating. With the largest portion of my 33 years in the industry doing body repair and restoration and customizing. So will you quit throwing that "Office" underhanded crap at me?

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 01:37 PM
Hwyhogg's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Electrolytic rust removal
Last journal entry: 2.75 in..3.50 posi out
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Spring Hill, Florida
Posts: 493
Wiki Edits: 6

Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Ok, here's my situation; I've gotten most (2/3) of the body down to bare metal, and have removed any old filler. A paint guy told me I shouldn't have to use much below (not grittier) than 220 to prep the bare metal for the epoxy. I've decided to apply any and all filler over the epoxy....NOT bare metal. I mostly wanted to know what grit to start and finish the filler and then any finish "glaze" over the filler. I was only going to use a "high build" primer once and then sand that down with ???grit, and then paint with a single stage satin black...I'm not going to do multiple primer/block/primer/block coats. It is the 56 ford panel truck....I just posted a couple of pics in my gallery....again thanks to all for helping me work toward finishing this thing....
James
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 02:08 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,160 Times in 1,024 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hwyhogg
Ok, here's my situation; I've gotten most (2/3) of the body down to bare metal, and have removed any old filler. A paint guy told me I shouldn't have to use much below (not grittier) than 220 to prep the bare metal for the epoxy. I've decided to apply any and all filler over the epoxy....NOT bare metal. I mostly wanted to know what grit to start and finish the filler and then any finish "glaze" over the filler. I was only going to use a "high build" primer once and then sand that down with ???grit, and then paint with a single stage satin black...I'm not going to do multiple primer/block/primer/block coats. It is the 56 ford panel truck....I just posted a couple of pics in my gallery....again thanks to all for helping me work toward finishing this thing....
James
Well first off if you get the tech sheets to the products you are using this is all covered. But in a nutshell, 220 is a bit fine for bare metal to epoxy primer, 180 or even 120 is better. Filler, it really depends so much on how big is the area.

If I had to fill a whole quarter panel, then yes I would do a little "knocking down" of the super high spots with 40 and then bring it down to near perfection with 80. Then skim coat it with a polyester putty and then hit the high spots down with a block with 80 and work it out with 120 then 180.

On a smaller area say a square foot or so, 80 to knock the filler down and 120 on the polyester putty and finish it off in 180. May even skip the 120 all together depending on how much sanding is require.

Then prime and follow the manufacturers recommendations on finishing for paint, most likely 400 to 500 for that satin black.

Here is a little article on the subject of working with plastic fillers.
"Basics of Basics" plastic fillers AKA "Bondo".

And I can't stress enough, get those panels into epoxy before moving on anymore. A total bare metal 56 Ford Panel is a seriously overwhelming project! Get a panel or two striped and into bare metal before you go on is my advice.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 07:02 PM
Hwyhogg's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Electrolytic rust removal
Last journal entry: 2.75 in..3.50 posi out
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Spring Hill, Florida
Posts: 493
Wiki Edits: 6

Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Lol....overwhelming----you got that dead on. I'm piping in my air lines this week and will get the body that's stripped already-- covered in epoxy, (already got the epoxy). thanks for the link. Since the front clip is all apart and in primer by the guy I purchased them from, I will do them in epoxy last. I didn't know I'd get the info on tech sheets with the filler; planning on using rage gold or extreme. Where would be the best place to post pics of each stage in case other new guys want to learn from my mistakes and you pro guys can critique if you see any glaring screw ups with the methods? thanks again,
James
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 08:16 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,160 Times in 1,024 Posts
James, I am not sure if the tech sheet for the filler IS going to have much on the sanding subject, I personally have never seen one!

But you could start a Journal here on Hotrodders. In your profile you will see a link for doing this.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2010, 08:26 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,160 Times in 1,024 Posts
LOLOLOL, the tech sheet they have is dated 2003, over SEVEN years old!
http://www.evercoat.com/imgs/pis/RAGEGOLDPIS.pdf

And it says to "GRIND" the paint off with 40 or 50 grit for large areas and 80 grit for smaller areas. LOLOL, That goes against everything they told me and my boss when we called them a couple of years ago! LOL, and is almost what DBM said that I flamed him for! LOL, I don't give a rats *** what that data sheet says, grinding paint with 40 grit is STILL WAY over the top. And it DOES go against everything I have learned the last number of years.

But that is pretty funny.

All I know is follow the guidelines in the link I gave you and you will be a master. I have had guys read that and follow those directions bring the car to a shop for priming and painting and have the shop tell him he should get a job there. It is a PROVEN method that WORKS.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2010, 05:04 AM
jcclark's Avatar
The Penny Pincher
 

Last journal entry: Hanging Bumpers
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, Ky. U.S.A.
Age: 61
Posts: 1,876
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 19 Times in 16 Posts
It also says to remove the 50 grit scratches with 80 grit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2010, 05:04 AM
Hwyhogg's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Electrolytic rust removal
Last journal entry: 2.75 in..3.50 posi out
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Spring Hill, Florida
Posts: 493
Wiki Edits: 6

Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
okay, cool.
Thanks again. Not so much worried bout getting to the bare metal as I am working the material after the epoxy; filler, putty, primer. I used a combination of the DA and chemical stripper to get the bare metal. I will post new pics as they happen.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 01-25-2010, 05:08 AM
Hwyhogg's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Electrolytic rust removal
Last journal entry: 2.75 in..3.50 posi out
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Spring Hill, Florida
Posts: 493
Wiki Edits: 6

Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
This is where I am
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	hogg4.jpg
Views:	170
Size:	133.9 KB
ID:	43430  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Body - Exterior posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I hate body work Part # 2 Deuce Body - Exterior 13 12-20-2007 05:34 PM
Low buck body work procedure Ricky Rocket Body - Exterior 5 06-02-2006 07:53 AM
Feeling body work tip. MARTINSR Body - Exterior 8 05-29-2006 11:39 AM
How much $ for good body work Rad Ray Body - Exterior 11 04-17-2003 12:22 PM
Body Work trick66 Body - Exterior 5 03-01-2003 01:18 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.