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Old 12-07-2006, 07:53 PM
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Cam Experts - Please help me out!

I have a 90 Mustang LX that Im building a 331 for. The car weighs 3000 lbs. I am running 4.10 gears with 28 tires. The transmission is a Performance Automatic C4 with a 3500 Stall converter. Im running an edelbrock victor Jr. intake and Performer RPM heads with 2.02/1.60 valves. Compression should be between 10.5:1 to 11.0:1. The car is not a daily driver but will see some street time, as well as mile time. I may add nitrous at a later date, but not more than about a 100 hp shot.

The cam (which I ended up buying) that was recommended by Chet Herbert was a 256/262 duration (@ .050) with .640/.672 lift. Initially (and compared to other cam manufacturer recommendations) this seemed like a lot of lift for this motor, but Im no expert on cams. He also sent me manley valve springs (p/n 221443-16) which are 235 lbs seat/610 lbs open. I was told that these were a direct replacement for the springs on my edelbrock heads. I also got solid roller lifters from him.

The springs have been the main issue. First they did not fit the original edelbrock retainers or cups (locators). Called up manley and they got me hooked up with the right cups. Chet sent me some titanium retainers and locks. I thought I was good until I go to install the springs. They are listed as 1.950 installed height, but from my measurements, my heads are set up for 1.800 installed height. The coil bind on the springs that I was sent is 1.170". Now someone slap me if I'm doing this wrong, but 1.800 minus the amount of lift, .672 brings the spring to 1.128 compressed. That's past the coil bind.

This has been a nightmare, and I really can't spend any more money on this motor. If anyone want to recommend a fix for this, whether it be a complete new setup, or just getting different springs, please let me know. This was supposed to be my Christmas present to myself, but that just doesn't look like it's going to happen in time. Right now I have a hair under $1000 invested in the valve train.

Travis

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Last edited by TravisT; 12-07-2006 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:01 PM
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Travis......Chet Herbert is a genious, but I doubt you taked to him when you called his shop. He has a bunch of salemen that answer the phone and they get paid a commission...go figure! Anyway that sounds like a monster cam for a 331 sbf and those valve springs are race stuff. I was concerned about firing my 331" sbc with stiff springs on my Edelbrock rpm heads so I called them, now this is for a chevy but they are 120# on the seat and 320# open, not exactly what I would call "direct replacement". I would call Herberts back and ask for the manager or Chet himself......Good luck
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:58 AM
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Granted, the first time I called I talked to someone else, but unless there are two people named chet that work there, I've been talking to him ever since. Should I return all of this stuff to him or stick it out with this cam/spring combo?
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:24 AM
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Sounds like a cool build, and I don't think you shoudl send back the cam just yet. Just make a few phone calls to the folks who know the parts and ask your questions. It sounds like you're just a couple of steps away from having this thing together-

K
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:41 AM
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first off if your lift is more than your coil bind height your going to break things ,second is that lift going to clear your pistons or will you have interferance there also ,are you running standard 1.62 rockers or 1.7 this also changes the lift at the valve.did you tell chet what your installed height is?
i was just on manleys site and why wouldn't he have give you p/n 22440-16 the #'s are 250@ 1.850'' and 680@ 1.150'', coil bind height 1.080'' now put a +.050'' retainer on and you should be in the game for that cam.it's not rocket science just brain surgery lol.
good luck
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:18 AM
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If you want to run a solid roller cam, then you are normally forced to use springs that have more installed height. An 1.950" is a pretty standard figure for alot of springs. There are some roller springs that install shorter than that, and you might call Herbert back and see if he doesn't have a set that will set up at a shorter height.

Otherwise, you will probably need some .100 long valves or valves with less tip length, and/or +.050 valve locks/retainers. You have to use stiff roller springs. You can't use some flat tappet spring, they won't control the valve motion produced by the roller cam.

Sometimes, you just have to make things fit. It's the nature of hotrodding.


Nairb
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:04 AM
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i was just on manleys site and why wouldn't he have give you p/n 22440-16 the #'s are 250@ 1.850'' and 680@ 1.150'', coil bind height 1.080'' now put a +.050'' retainer on and you should be in the game for that cam.it's not rocket science just brain surgery lol.
good luck [/QUOTE]
sorry i'm the one who needs brain surgery did not realize what i was looking at.
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Old 12-08-2006, 11:21 AM
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Will those rpm heads even support the .700 lift?
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Old 12-08-2006, 01:49 PM
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Ok after several measurements and re-checking my piston-valve clearance, I think I will be ok. The springs have to go, and so do the spring locators. After talking with Chet Herbert (who didn't want to give me much recommendation for springs) and Kyle @ Manley, I'm going to go with the 22440 spring with the correct locator for it (42317). That will put me at 250 lbs seat pressure and a 1.080" coil bind. With the .672 lift, that will put me at 1.128 compressed which is .048 from spring bind. Kyle said this should be fine. The retainers that Chet sent me for the 221443 (original) springs are the incorrect retainers for those springs. However, they will work perfectly with the new springs, because the new springs are a .710 ID and the retainers are .720. The old springs were .832, which was too big for the .720 retainers.

Also, to answer you guys questions, the lift is .640/.672 @ valve with 1.6 rockers, which is what I am running. Aside from shipping, these parts will be cheaper than the first set of springs I had, so everything will go over smoothly with the wife.

I just hope Chet's recommendation on this cam was a good one. I really didn't want to backtrack and change out the cam completely. I had just buttoned up the oil pan and front cover. It is still a bunch of lift in my opinion, but my valve/piston clearance looks good with the cam installed on the 106 intake centerline. Kyle said that the high spring pressure should be fine on the edelbrock valves, that they put pretty decent valves in the heads.

What do you guys think? (Go easy on me, I already bought all of the new stuff!!!)
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Old 12-08-2006, 02:04 PM
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I don't think you have near enough gear or converter to make that cam work. We run a 240/240 roller cam in our 331" motor and it peaks about 7000 rpm with a torque peak at 4600. It's going to be a dog off the line and you're not going to be able to use the long gear.
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Old 12-08-2006, 02:28 PM
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That's what I'm afraid of. As long as it will WORK, I am going to run with what I got for now. Hopefully I'm not disappointed.
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Old 12-08-2006, 02:35 PM
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Might try asking at sbftech.com There is a lot of knowledge there
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Old 12-08-2006, 03:06 PM
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I used the same et-up on my engine and it works just fine. Make sure all other engine parts are in good shape, no ense building an engine wih rotten and worn out parts.
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Old 12-08-2006, 03:19 PM
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Looks like I'll be back on the phone with Chet. After double checking my piston/valve clearance, looks like I'm at about .065 at overlap on the intake, which is too close. Chet's suggestion for this was to check the exhaust clearance, and if there is a good bit there to advance/retard the cam. I'm really starting to get pissed off here. It seems that advancing/retarding the cam is going to effect the power curve of the motor, and to me that is just trying to get the monkey off his back. I asked him to start over with me, and recommend a cam for my motor. He said that he doesn't want to recommend anything because of all the problems with my motor. Everything on this motor is new with the exception of the heads!

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that all of my problems came from the parts that his guys recommended for me. ARRGGGHHH!!!!!

So should I send this D@MN thing back and stop dealing with him altogether, and bring my business somewhere that is willing to work with me, or am I in the wrong here? I could understand if I called him up and said I want xxx cam and xxx spring, and then call back and complain when it doesn't work right.
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Old 12-08-2006, 03:57 PM
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Travis, so sorry your having all these problems!! If It was me, I would send that cam and everything else back to Chet and then call Comp Cams. I had a real mess with my 355 SBC motor and called comp cams for advise and man, the tech spent almost 30 min with me asking every question and then suggested the cam I should use for the purpose I wanted. I have the same heads you do and I did not want a 1/4 strip car but a weekend street warrior so I went with a 230/236 but that is me and a very different need than you have. Just thought I'd suggest Comp Cams. Luck to you!!!!
Bob
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