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Old 03-24-2009, 07:38 PM
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CAM Selection holding my build up (help)

I am putting together a 350 bored .40 overbore. I have everything except.. you know what. I have a 69 C/10, approx. 4000lb, th350 (which may soon be 700r), vortec heads, performer intake, quadrajet carb. I talked with a summit tech guy and he recommended an 1104 cam (224@.50 with 465 lift). This is a straight pattern cam that comes on at about 2200-5200. If ai am running a performer intake which is from idle to-- then why would I start with a cam that comes in at 2200rpm. He says it's an old GM 350/350 cam that will pull hard (which I can see), but my question is what happens up to 2200? what's going on there. Do I have a dog up to that point. I know this sounds silly, but just trying to get the right cam the first time around. Don't have time/money to go back in.

Also, I had my heads done (stock rebuild).. and I was adimant about all the stuff I read about Vortecs not being able to handle lift over .450. I kept asking him.. and when I picked my heads up, he took me to the bench, took one spring apart, measured the distance from the bottom of the retainer to the top of the seal (guide) and he said I had clearance for a 1/2" lift there which equates to .500. Even though I know I will not use a .500 lift cam, I just wanted to know I'd be good at say .460-470. He tells me to quit reading and talking to so many people. Is there anything still here I need to know.. or is this the norm. He's guaranteeing I will not have any issues with the cam.

Another thing is I did not switch springs. He mentioned the springs are a little stiffer because they were designed to work with a roller cam. Can these be used with a flat tappet grind without issues. He says yes? Anyway, I need to be gettin a cam this week and getting on with this build. I also contemplated going the retro roller route, but I've had guys tell me why bother.. because I am already doing all the necessary upgrades in my build that the extra power of a roller would give me.

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Old 03-24-2009, 08:24 PM
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If he measured .500" between the retainer bottom and the top of the installed valve seal, then you can safely run a .450" lift camshaft. You need some ball room. Nnet valve lift + ball room (.050" to .060") = net safe distance between seal and retainer.
Your machinist is lazy and cutting it too close. I recomend the Summit #1103 camshaft for your specific application. 214-224@.050" .442-.465" lift.
The 224-224 465 465 summit cam you want to use is better in a Camaro with a good bit of gear and a high stall converter. It is similar to but not the same as the old L79 327-350hp cam.
They are both good cams, but the #1103 is better for you.
(I've built and run this exact 350 vortec combo with the th700r4)
The stock vortec springs are designed for a very very mild. low rpm non performance hyd roller cam. Even thou its a hyd roller am it is not agressive at all. Its lazy, just like your machnist..... Which looks better machinist or machnist? get the picture?
The stock OEM Vortec valve springs do not have enough (seat or open) spring pressure for a high performance camshaft-- hyd flat tappet or hyd roller.
For max performance you want a seat pressure of 100 to 105lbs and a open presure of around 280LBS. The stock vortec springs come up short and will limit the rpm valve float limit.
Your machinist will not warranty it if your overrev the springs,bounce the valvetrain and crush the valve seals. I cannot tell your the exact rpm limit of the stock springs where every thing is going to go all to hell but........
many people just "getto grind" a little (.015") off the bottom of the stock GM vortec retainers and install a Comp 981 or a Speed pro 739R spring at 1.70 to 1.72" installed height after removing the inner spring damper.
Apparently there is a Chrysler/Dodge motor application speedpro brand replacement valve guide seal that allows some .550" lift clearance without maching using stock vortefc retainers.
So ther are lots of good/lazy ways to skin the vortec cat without creating a disaster.
The hot ticket with the summit #1103 cam and vortecs is to use a 1.6-1.5 ratio rocker set for net .471intake .465exhaust valve lift with the getto grind and drop on hi perf springs - the inner damper.
If you do these simple mods and follow the combo, the only problem you'll have is keeping tread on the trucks tires.

Again if you measured and got .500" between the retainer and seal, thats not enough for a .500" lift cam. It's good for a .450" lift cam. Unless you like replacing crushed valve seals all the time. Takes but a few minutes work to set the vortec valvetrain up correctly for the Summit 1103 cam.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 03-24-2009 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:18 PM
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Thanks for the reply and I can't agree more.. he is LAZY.. and only cares about being paid. He does not have the time or patience to explain things.. nor does he want to hear. Much like body shop guys that only want to do insurance work now because they get paid faster.. and it takes a 1/4 of the time to do the work of restoration work nowadays.

If I am hearing you right.. I cannot use these stiffer springs on a flat tappet cam. Also, can you please clarify this "use a 1.6-1.5 ratio rocker set for net .471intake .465exhaust valve lift with the getto grind and drop on hi perf springs - the inner damper". Which one do I use. I have stock stamped steel rockers now. I need to find someone that can do the work for me. Isn't the beehive springs an option without cutting anything. This is a good shop (but high volume) and they don't have time to deal with someone like me. I know I have frustrated him.. but guess what, in the end, I was right. This was one reason why I had not ordered a cam because I didn't feel confident with his answers.
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:27 PM
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I'm a bodyman by trade, and your really frustrating me.
Good Restoration is long hard detailed work. Collision work is hard work too but is $$$gravy$$$.

This is not that hard.............
1.6 on the intakes 1.5 on the exhaust. Just like your machinist I don;t think holding your hand is required. Some of this you should be able to put together in your head, yourself > if your block needs to be further decked to get the desired final deck clearance you want (if it matters to you), your machinist is going to charge your for that. They do not work for free. and they do charge extra if they have to hold your hand. (teach you all this stuff)
Know your engine math. Know and plan what you want to do and pay him to do what he was trained to do. (not teach you) thats what the Books are for.
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos9
and only cares about being paid. *SNIP* Much like body shop guys that only want to do insurance work now because they get paid faster.. and it takes a 1/4 of the time to do the work of restoration work nowadays.
So, I suppose because you have the handle "Carlos", you are Mexican or Hispanic. Therefore you are a thief and carry a dull switchblade and run w/a gang.

Oh, that's not true? You say I painted you w/too broad of a brush?

Think about what you say BEFORE you print it here. Most body men are hard working, honest individuals who are talented beyond any prowess YOU possess.

And no, I am not a body man.
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:39 PM
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Your advice is good.. and to be honest, I look forward to your replies because it seems like you know what's going on, but let me say some of us.. or most of us are not as smart as you in this regard. I said this to say stop being an *** dude. There are all SORTS of these hand-holding type questions out there posted daily. I see them and I still try and help without offending anyone. The internet IS free and the information on this forum should be also.. and not deemed as babysitting someone. I said more than I cared to say about that. I don't want to run staggered rockers.. that's not a good build to me. It's a cheap way of doing what you should have done right IMO.
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:49 PM
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Let me say this.. and I thought about it.. There is WAYYYY too much
estrogen on this board. Guys get bent out of shape for nothin. All I'm trying to do is get some answers. The body shop comment was not a shot at body people. I was simply trying to "state a fact" that most body shops don't have time to do restorations anymore because they are time consuming and the money is generally slow. I have dealt with enough body guys and restored enough cars to know that. That's all I was getting at. Bunch of sissies. Help me for crying out loud.. don't start taking my words apart. I cannot believe you read my post.. and that was a response to help? My god!

I have been suspended on this post for speaking my mind when others have taken shots at me. Here's my take. If when you look at someones post and you cannot help.. then don't comment. Leave that to the folks that honestly want to help, not start cat fights without helping.
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Old 03-24-2009, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos9
I was simply trying to "state a fact" that most body shops don't have time to do restorations anymore because they are time consuming and the money is generally slow.
Then that's what you should have said, if you felt you had to say anything in that regard in the first place. Remember, you said you were here to "get some answers".

Quote:
I have been suspended on this post...
Now, why does that not surprise me.
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Old 03-24-2009, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Then that's what you should have said, if you felt you had to say anything in that regard in the first place. Remember, you said you were here to "get some answers".

Now, why does that not surprise me.
Yeah for defending myself against racist pigs like you! My name is Carlos and I am not mexican. Now see, this is how I will get in trouble for responding to idiots like you. You started this not me by stereotyping a name with a race.

Look for post where you can respond to and help people. I have no issues with you.. leave me alone. Go F.. your wife, dog or jerk off or something!
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Old 03-24-2009, 11:12 PM
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Well I am a bodyman and what you say is for the most part true. We like the $$gravy collision/insurance work$$$.
Don;t know where/how the Hispanic stuff got in to this thread but could we pass on that stuff here?
What frustrates me is your inability to put simple conclusions together. Like what net valve lift you get with different rocker arm ratios.
1103 summit Camshaft is .442" in .465" ex w 1.5 rocker. If you add 8 1.6 rockers just to the intake side only the new valve lift is .471"in .465"ex.
Near hyd roller cam performance at bargain basement prices.

Piston pin height is 1.54" instead of 1.56" = piston will be .020" further down the bore at TDC... affects compression ratio and net quench clearance.
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Old 03-24-2009, 11:58 PM
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Carlos, just so you know, lots of racers run staggered ratios when it poses an advantage to their combo, It's not a "poor" or "incorrect" way of doing things, often it is the better way!
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Old 03-25-2009, 02:32 AM
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Funny stuff
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Old 03-25-2009, 06:13 AM
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cam

tech, I'll get the pop corn you bring the Pepsi....


Keith
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Old 03-25-2009, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Well I am a bodyman and what you say is for the most part true. We like the $$gravy collision/insurance work$$$.
Don;t know where/how the Hispanic stuff got in to this thread but could we pass on that stuff here?
What frustrates me is your inability to put simple conclusions together. Like what net valve lift you get with different rocker arm ratios.
1103 summit Camshaft is .442" in .465" ex w 1.5 rocker. If you add 8 1.6 rockers just to the intake side only the new valve lift is .471"in .465"ex.
Near hyd roller cam performance at bargain basement prices.

Piston pin height is 1.54" instead of 1.56" = piston will be .020" further down the bore at TDC... affects compression ratio and net quench clearance.

I did know this and I know guys that do this on street cars. The reason I say a cheap way of doing something right is because the guys that do it are poor.. like me. Anyway, I do understand this, but what 'sort' of confused me was the intake lift going up that much.. and ususally you see the intake side being less than the ex. and in a sense it still is, you are just holding the valve open longer with 1.6 rocker. Do they make stamped steel 1.6 rockers.
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Old 03-25-2009, 12:17 PM
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"you are just holding the valve open longer with 1.6 rocker"

Wrong again. The length of time the valve is open is called duration and is dependent on the opening and closing points that are ground into the camshaft lobe at the time of manufacture. The rocker arm ratio only determines how far the valve is lifted off its seat.

Yes, 1.6 stamped steel rockers are available. Here's a set of 8 Manley long slot steel rockers....
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku
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