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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2004, 05:38 AM
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The Stang had 3 coats of has thurs, wetsanded with 1000 friday
and 3 more coats friday Monday wetsaned with 1000 and two coats. I will put the durability up against your best standard job.
anyday and win.
Durability starts at the undercoats and it also depends on clear.
You don't do something like this With S&W or omni or nason type paints.

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Old 07-27-2004, 11:07 AM
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Ok, assuming my car has too much paint & readily chips, what is the best/easiest way to strip it down without body off & without spending a year sanding it??
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2004, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BarryK
The Stang had 3 coats of has thurs, wetsanded with 1000 friday
and 3 more coats friday Monday wetsaned with 1000 and two coats. I will put the durability up against your best standard job.
anyday and win.
Durability starts at the undercoats and it also depends on clear.
You don't do something like this With S&W or omni or nason type paints.
I don't know why you have to keep mentioning S-W with insults. Come on, I don't take it personally, But it makes for poor dialog. S-W Ultra/BASE is the same technology as DuPont Chromabase and many other bc/cc systems so let's get that clear.

Secondly, if you have a polyurethane clear that can do that, wonderful, market it and I hope you take over the paint industry and make millions of dollars. But if you treat the "average" urethane clear like that it will fail, or you will simply have piles of problems like die back, shrinkage, chalking and other failures. The "average" urethane clear is just not designed to do so or they would tell you to on the tech sheet. Now, if the "average" clear shouldn't be piled on like that, shouldn't the recommendations to newbes be follow the tech sheets of the product they are using, not the results you have found with THAT product. After all, they don't likely have THAT product to use.

I don't hardly ever answer a post with a comment SPECIFICALLY for one person or another. I like a rounded response so everyone who may visit the forum will understand why I say it. Check the view counts on these threads, I have seen posts with 300 and more hits and only 10 or 20 replys. There are MANY people who read these posts while only a few respond. I know this because of the large amount who email me asking questions that they could ask on the forum. But for some reason they don't, I understand. My point is, you just can't tell people to mix products, to hell with the tech sheet, you just can't.

I know and you know you CAN go off that tech sheet, I know and you know you can mix some products with similar technologies. You know a heck of a lot more than I do on the subject, but you have learned WHAT you can get away with and what you can't.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. As a paint rep dealing with trouble shooting or just visiting shops period. I have seen THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of projects just as you have. There is NOTHING but NOTHING that can increase your odds more of a nice end product that lasts more then following the tech sheets, NOTHING .

There are plenty of people who smoke all their lives and live to be a hundred. However that doesn't change the FACTS that the STATS PROVE you will live longer if you don't.

Painting is the same way, if you follow the tech sheets for the product you are using you WILL by the odds have a better end product, PERIOD.

And also by the ODDS, the people who read this will not be using your products, they will be using PPG, DuPont, Sikkens and yes, S-W. Maybe you can change that, I hope you do, but right now, the facts are, that is what they will be using.

That being said, they should be told what will help them the most, and that is FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS .

I can't tell you how much I respect your opinions and what you do to demystify this stuff. Please understand that. I just think we need to make it easier on the newbes not make it more complicated.

Last edited by MARTINSR; 07-27-2004 at 07:41 PM.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2004, 08:55 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MARTINSR
[B]I don't know why you have to keep mentioning S-W with insults. Come on, I don't take it personally, But it makes for poor dialog. S-W Ultra/BASE is the same technology as DuPont Chromabase and many other bc/cc systems so let's get that clear.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WRONG, its an enamel with paraffin, different ball game, why are they coming out with a new base, if the old is so great?
No insult to you meant, its just not as good as a lot of others
All i said is you can't do a job the way I did with that system and have it hold up and get the gloss you want, you are right it would be a problem.
But there are a whole bunch of systems you can.
Out of 5000+ plus cars at the goodguy show, trust me none of them had a tech sheet job. Can't be done.
Its all what you want, we all have our standards.
Its more of a help to the new comers to paint to let them know
that yes you can use the 40 dollar gallon of Marhide or nason primer and base it with spies base and use Dupont or ppg clear and get a great job with out spending the house payment.
I will continue to stress that.
I don't need a tech sheet to know what will work and screw up
so I can and will try to help.
Whats the facts? Last year 60+% of the bodyshops in the USA
were mixing paint systems? Why? better jobs and to save money because of insurance caps on materials.
That leaves 40% the painter can go in a say this is what the tech sheet says and not get thrown out the door.

Its like the articles you posted at the top, They are off your S&W
training manual and out dated and based on nothing but S&W
just one example, just off the top of my head I can think of 14 clears you cannot spray with a 1.3, or it better not be bigger than a fender. So some poor guy is going to bit the bullet on a gun set up and first time he spray certain clears it going to pop and he won't know why? I can think outside of a tech sheet for myself!

Last edited by BarryK; 07-27-2004 at 09:12 PM.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-28-2004, 08:31 AM
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Barry, we will have to agree to disagree on a few things and move on (hopefully).

How in the world can I have an argument with you about the chemistry of automotive finishes? What I know about the chemistry could be put in your eye and you wouldn't feel it.

While you were getting into the chemistry, I was studying the people, I was fasinated by what I saw in shops. One of the first things I noticed was something you have said, the technologies are so close it is amazing. There are no "Bad" systems, I sure as heck couldn't go into a shop head to head with anything, THAT is for darn sure. And I agree (did a number of weeks ago right here) that S-W wouldn't be the best if I had a choice.

Where in the world do you get the stats that 60% of shops in America mix brands? How where the stats compiled? There are approx 50 thousand shops last time I heard. How many were contacted with this survey? But more importantly, what were the questions asked?

Do you have more than one brand product in the shop right now?
Or Do you regularly mix products day to day?

Those would get two totally different answer, I have to wonder what was asked.

Personally, 25 years in the business, I have NEVER worked in a shop that mixed products. From high end restoration to used car work, not a one. Now, times have changed and there are many more small company offerings of undercoats and clears, it is a whole different world now, I agree. I am sure there are plenty who do. But in my travels, it is no where near 60%, not even close.

Here is the part you won't want to hear. Of the shops I visited the ones who mixed product where the biggest pain in the neck! THEY were the ones with the problems, they were the ones trying to blame the product (the product that would back them up that had real representation that is). They wouldn't have "darn my primer isn't cureing fast enough" No, they would have TOTAL catastrophic failures. I would get called out to these shops with stuff like a urethane SS that could be scratched off with your finger nails. The same paint was used on a number of fleets of cement trucks where they used "Reversacrete" removing DRY concrete off it and it held up fine.
No, the "junior chemist" would find a way to screw it up.

I am not saying, not for a second, that using a Marhyde primer under your PPG paint is going to cause failure, I am NOT saying that. What I am saying is, the guy who doesn't give that a thought is the guy who is going to mix reducers or hardeners brand to brand. SURE this can be done IF, and this is a BIG IF you know what you are doing. What you don't understand about human nature is if you tell someone "put any hardener in your John Deere paint", He will put any hardener in the PPG primer and YOUR clear. Then when he calls you up with a warrantee claim you will turn it down.

I thank you for pointing out the 1.3 tip mistake I made on my article. I have changed it in my copy (did that the day you told me) the copy used here was from before you told me. I have no control over how my stuff is used. After all, that same article is on about 12 web sites that I know of.


I am no chemist but I am smart enough to know there is no winning an arument on what paint company is better, not with a chemist or for sure not with a painter. I am not talking "opinion" here, I am simply telling you what I have seen. I have no reason to say anything different, I have no agenda, I am not a paint rep anymore. I am simply stating what I have seen with my own two eyes. If you were to give 100 painters (a mix of pros and newbes) a project to prime and paint and said, have at it, mix and match do what you like. And gave the same 100 painters a SYSTEM with tech sheets and instructed them to follow it, the second group would have fewer problems. I haven't done this test, but I am comfortable in saying the second group would have fewer problems. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING.

On the reference on the 5000 cars at the Goodguys show, you are wrong, any car I painted (and there may be a few) would have been done by the tech sheets.

And on that issue, restoration or custom paint is not a good example of paint problems or longevity. First off, you have all the time in the world to make it nice. Heck, you could have an orange peel like underseal or stucco and spend days polishing it to a perfect shine. The car is garaged 99% of it's life, etc. A high end collision shop doing dozens of $100,000 luxury cars a month, now there you will see where the rubber meets the road. It has to be done in a timely manner and you better produce something that looks great and isn't going to shink up in the coming months or you WILL be hearing from them.
This is why I feel ANY newbe can do a "show car" finish, I have seen it. It really isn't that hard. But you sure couldn't throw the poor guy into a bodyshop matching color and painting everyday or he would die a quick death.

There is no reason to beat this to death, you and I feel different on these subjects.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-28-2004, 08:44 AM
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I used an industrial grade suede black single stage enamel on my 67 and sprayed 8 coats on it They were very thin coats but I needed that many because I was getting the stripey look and had to wetsand flaws out between coats. I do have a gip along the edge of the paint but it's because the hood alignment was a bit off and the edge of the hod caught the edge of the fender. I then saw how thick the paint was and after the 8 coats it was still quite thin. Maybe half the thickness of a quarter or so. This was the first paint job I had ever done so I am no expert in this area, just thougth I'd share my " 8 coats of paint" story
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-28-2004, 09:37 AM
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I have painted every thing imaginable that could be rolled, drug, pushed, carried, etc. in to the shop. I have always fallowed the tech. sheet, be it a show car or a manure spreader. And still at times there was problems. But they were covered by warranty, and a few I've had to eat. I've done some fleet painting with cheaper paint that was furnished by the fleet owner, and used hardeners that were compatible, but a different brand, with no warranty.

A painter learns fast just what products can be used with other products.

But his bread and butter is paint jobs that follow the tech sheet.

I didn't make the Good Guys show because I was on the power tour, some left the tour and went to good guys, the three cars I painted that went on had paint by the tech sheet. They did a photo shoot on one of them.

Troy

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-28-2004, 12:46 PM
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On the lighter side of "Can you have too many coats of paint":

http://www.ballofpaint.com/facts.shtml


The world's largest ball of paint in Alexandria, IN, is past 17,000 coats of paint.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-28-2004, 05:12 PM
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Where in the world do you get the stats that 60% of shops in America mix brands? How where the stats compiled? There are approx 50 thousand shops last time I heard. How many were contacted with this survey? But more importantly, what were the questions asked?
************************************************** *
Ask your company.( S&W they paid for part of it) not me, this study was done and paid for by the the major paint companies as part of the price fixing suit.
Only thing considered was if using different brand of either clear, primer or epoxy than there paint system.
67,000 shops.
Believe what you want! Its a fact. BK
************************************************** **
Do you have more than one brand product in the shop right now?
Or Do you regularly mix products day to day?
Those would get two totally different answer, I have to wonder what was asked.
it is no where near 60%, not even close.******************************************** ****

See, I hate unfounded opinion!
Your company was one that paid for this, yea their not going to talk about it, but you made a pure statement no way, hell the paint company's knew going in it was
at least 45% They can tell by ratio of sales!!!! BK
************************************************** **
I am not saying, not for a second, that using a Marhyde primer under your PPG paint is going to cause failure, I am NOT saying that. What I am saying is, the guy who doesn't give that a thought is the guy who is going to mix reducers or hardeners brand to brand. SURE this can be done IF, and this is a BIG IF you know what you are doing. What you don't understand about human nature is if you tell someone "put any hardener in your John Deere paint", He will put any hardener in the PPG primer and YOUR clear. Then when he calls you up with a warrantee claim you will turn it down.
************************************************** **
Read what I wrote! I have full knowledge of john Deere black, I told him the ratios would work and also pointed out he should use the same reducer as its a queer duck and I said WHY!
I never said anything about another hardener in ppg clear or primer, I won't promote that.
What if I told you the marhyde is a copy of k36? What if I told you I know the women from PPG that wrote the formula years ago?
BK
************************************************** *
I am no chemist but I am smart enough to know there is no winning an arument on what paint company is better, not with a chemist or for sure not with a painter.

**************************************************
I will explain one time as we discussed in emails a while back so you know where I'm coming from.
I will never give an opinion on here Except for chemical fact!

Every system is good in its own way and has a purpose. There are pros and cons to all of them. Depending on the persons needs here I will point them out. If someone on a budget wants to put on a show job with omni because hes on a budget I can tell him how to do it, buy just doing one thing like say using 7800 or 2022 0r 3000 or 9000 clear at a few extra bucks and it will change the job 100% and he still gets out cheap. Here is where you and I differ, I can tell him how this job will stand up compared to whatever you want it compared to and tell him the downfalls. You would not want to hear how tough this system would be. It would out-test you S&W!
Thats just one example.

Next: I Always believe every product (everyday stuff) should be mixed by the tech sheet, JD was a different type special deal.
I would never change that.
But now that you have done that with your K36 primer, yes now you can apply Deebeers base or any other base over it with no problems and sometimes even make it a stronger system. BK

************************************************** **
One other thing, before making statements like using a 1.3 tip to spray 2K primer another opinion, try to think out the problems.
Like in 3-6 months when he gets a stone chip and a 6 inch hunk of paint peels off and on the backside of that paint is primer and primer still on the car where the paint peeled.
Primer is not clear!
Hopefully no one was dumb enough to go buy a 1.3 primer gun.
BK

Last edited by BarryK; 07-28-2004 at 06:33 PM.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-28-2004, 08:21 PM
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Sorry to butt in on the pro paint discussion .... very informative but goes right by me..so for little guys like me, what about my post a couple back?? I have neither the patience to or time for, months sanding or the $$ to farm out. So what to do?? Use the abrasive grinding tools or a liquid brush on scrape therafter??? Must be a modern, better way!!!
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Old 07-29-2004, 08:12 AM
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Barry, you are just too intense for me. By the way, S-W isn't my company anymore, I sold it and retired to an island only to harass you on the internet. I hope the day looks as beautiful out your window in Georgia as it does mine here in California, what a beautiful day. Overcase, but beautiful just the same. My little boy (7)and girl (3) are sound asleep but will be up soon to go to my boys Boyscout day camp. My oldest boy (22) called me last night and told me to change the reservation on his rehearsal dinner this next month. Yep, he is getting married. Then there is my dad, he is not looking good at all and he is driving his caretaker crazy with his demands every minute. My mom passed away this past December and don't figure he is far behind. Anyway, I don't have any control over that so I will just look at this beautiful day and do what I can in my life, it is wonderful.
Nice chatting over this paint stuff with you Barry, Brian



al37Ford, I don't like chemical striper at all. It can do the job, but I like to sand it off. What ever you do, stick to ONE panel at a time. Striping a whole car can be VERY overwelming. Standing there staring at a complely bare metal car is something you just don't want to see unless you have a lot of space, proper tools, and more over a LOT of time, days of time. I HIGHLY recommend one panel at a time when doing a job like this at home.

I like to sand it off as I mentioned. I use an 8" "Hog" orbital sander with 80 grit to break thru good and start removing. You don't want to scratch the metal all up with the 80 grit so you want to stop BEFORE you are hitting the metal much. Then I switch to 120 on a day to finish the job. After doing each panel you then immediately prime it and you can move on to the next panel the next day. If you can do a couple of panels in a day, fine, you may find that is no big deal. But more than that I highly recommend against.

Now, around here I can get a car plastic media blasted for about 400 bucks. Personally, I would pay to have it done if I wanted it done in one shot. If you have a booth to immediately prime it after, and really can do that, I would go with plastic media and pay someone to do it.





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Old 07-29-2004, 08:24 AM
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Thanks Brian! appreciated! BTW, I've now got a digital camera & will try to post photos of the odd ball 6 carb manifold I told you about last fall. You may recall it came on an old 364 nailhead that had sat since the mid-'60s and also has a Spalding (orange) Flamethrower dist. made in the '50's(?), an Ansen bell housing, flywheel, pressure plate/clutch. Also have an Offy 6 carb but this one is ground smooth & polished with no ID anywhere. Very tubular & high tho. Got to find the nest way to post the photos!
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Old 07-29-2004, 08:41 AM
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I don't remember if you planned on selling those goodies but I would be interested. The manifold is likely a "U-weld" kit made from Tubing. By brother had one, they were sold by a number of people, his was a Cragar.

By the way, on the stripping, on edges and body lines were the larger sanders can't get, a three inch angle grinder with 3M "Surface conditioning discs" (part number 07456) are the way to go. DO NOT use wire wheels or something like that, these discs make them look stupid. They really work well. They also have two inch to get into real tight spaces. However, a good Spot sand blaster will work well in those tight little areas as well. Just don't be blasting anywhere near flat panels to avoid warping. I can't stress that enough, sandblasting WILL destroy a panel QUICK.
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Old 07-29-2004, 08:55 AM
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I don't plan on selling as my "next" car will use the jewelry though mod-ed to FI(?) . I doubt its a U weld as its a casting ground smooth & polished.
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Old 07-30-2004, 11:28 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MARTINSR
[B]Barry, you are just too intense for me.
*************************************************
I like to think of it more as a stickler for detail and pride and just plain dealing in facts, not opinions.

Last edited by BarryK; 07-31-2004 at 08:16 AM.
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