Can I fill a gap with/whilst welding? - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:41 AM
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Ok guys,

Morning is here and it's time to get to work

Whilst I'm at it, what should I do about these holes in the chassis main rail?

I think they've been caused by water getting into the small bracing section and not being able to escape

Should I fix them or leave them as they are as they'll be covered by the bracing?

And, what should I do to allow water to escape from this bracing section?
There ate holes in the front of it do water can enter, but there's nowhere I can see for it to escape

If I drill a hole in the bottom it still won't allow every drop to run out
I don't want to not weld the bottom of the section to the chassis, but I can't see what else to do






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Old 03-19-2012, 09:27 AM
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Up IS the correct way to weld vert. If you can get comfortable looking straight at or slightly down at the weld area, you can do that. The problem is, if you're not an experienced welder, you can let the gun point too far down into the weld instead of almost perpendicular and that can make your weave sag horribly. And you're also concentrating your puddle in the area of the most heat retention. When you're welding a gap, that can cause it to burn through quite suddenly, which causes foul language and other socially unacceptable actions. When running downhill, you're moving the puddle away from the most heat and that can be your savior at times. The MOST important thing if you're new at this is to get comfortable. Find a way to use one hand/arm as a brace for the arm/hand holding the gun so you have complete control over the tip distance from the puddle. Then you can concentrate on your weave motion and the puddle color(heat) and not have to worry so much about the space between the gun and metal. My best results when welding air is to go downhill, even though is does compromise strength a little. My OCD would make me cut out those ugly holes into rectangles with a die grinder and cutoff wheel and weld in some patch plates and grind them smooth. Also, if you cut a 45* angle across the bottom of your brace, about 1/2" up and 1/2" lateral, and not weld it, you can form a drain hole with a little heat and punch after your welding is complete. It will look good and be purpose built.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:44 AM
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welding patch..........

Personally,i would have the patch extend about 3 inches to the right side if the hole,then drill a couple of holes in the bottom of the chassis,to let some water out,BUT,before i welded that patch,i would shoot OSPHO inside that part of the chassis.
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:09 PM
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Very cool information guys! Thanks

With regards to cutting the brace at a 45* angle to allow a drainage point - I like your thinking - but can you tell me what you mean about the heat and punch bit?

Thanks
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:30 PM
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If I was doing it, after the welds were complete, I would make a slight radius in the boxing plate on the 45* angle. To me, it looks better and also gives a little more room for mud and crud to drain out along with moisture. I would make the radius with a taper punch and hammer to elongate and form the radius from the existing small hole made by the 45* cut, using a torch to heat the boxing plate metal, if needed, so the frame metal remained flat and the radius was all in the boxing metal.....but remember, I'm OCD where that stuff is concerned, and there are probably lots of other ways to do it but that's what came to my mind.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:02 PM
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Thanks

I have no skills and very little experience, but I know what you mean about the OCD thing - it's starting to creep up on me

I get what you're saying about the radius and cutting the angle at 45* but the taper punch bit is slightly lost on me - I've no doubt this is due to my lack of knowledge more than anything else though

I'll search through some google images and see if I can find something that works
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:45 PM
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It's not a traditional use of the punch but a tapered punch is kind of an elongated cone that starts as a small diameter and and smoothly tapers up to a larger diameter where it ends with a flat surface you hit with a hammer. Usually used to align holes up in metal pieces or remove rolled pins from shafts. I get one that is small enough on the end to fit in the gap left by not welding the 45* bias then by hitting it gently with the hammer and applying heat, if necessary, it makes the metal streatch and start to form a radius. by using 2 or 3 increasing sizes, you can get a reasonably formed symetrical hole that would look like it was made to do your moisture drain work. There are probably better tools to do this but I'm a use what you got sort of guy and I have a set of those punches.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:50 PM
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Cool!

So I should cut a small section in order to get the punch through it, and then the punch itself will give me the smooth radius to make it look OEM

I'm liking this
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:19 PM
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Exactly! I was thinking the unwelded approx 3cm 45* bias I talked about would offer enough gap to start a chisel or punch in to get a factory looking radius for the drain hole.
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatbob2
Personally,i would have the patch extend about 3 inches to the right side if the hole,then drill a couple of holes in the bottom of the chassis,to let some water out,BUT,before i welded that patch,i would shoot OSPHO inside that part of the chassis.
Why would you put acid in there?
Phosphoric acid does not stop rust, it only removes it, any acid left in place will activate when water gets in there and start eating things up, any oils included then the rust starts eating what the acid didnt.
There are numerous products he could use, epoxy being the best, but Ospho- not what I would use.
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:41 PM
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I would start where there's less gap and weld off of that bead. Once you get it going it won't seem so big, plus it's probbly thicker metal, which helps. If you're not comfortable with it you can always have your welder a little down and make a quick pass to establish metal, grind, then crank it up and do your final welding. I like to do it with one pass but if I could I would trade some of my old experiences of burning huge holes and then trying to fill them for two rounds of welding anyday.
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Old 03-24-2012, 07:44 PM
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I would cut the whole section out and replace with new steel the same thickness. The area above the 2 holes are pitted quite badly. If you follow the two drawings below, it should be ok. However, the second drawing explains how to cut and weld in the peice with a 45 degree "V". For good weld penetration. The corners can be done with an outside corner weld. I have done this repair to various chassis. On the inside I would also spray some primer as well as some fisholene oil to prevent any further rusting. I would do this on a full restoration repair rather than a quick fix-it. Even with minimal skills I would do this anyway. Hope this helps. Hope to hear on your progress soon.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fool
Why would you put acid in there?
Phosphoric acid does not stop rust, it only removes it, any acid left in place will activate when water gets in there and start eating things up, any oils included then the rust starts eating what the acid didnt.
There are numerous products he could use, epoxy being the best, but Ospho- not what I would use.
In my unending attempt to separate fact from fiction about Ospho and clear up the misconceptions about its use ,I just have to say something when someone is wrong...and the thinking that epoxy primer is some kind of cure all that it isn't...Epoxy may just be the best sealer against moisture and other contaminates but ONLY when used on clean metal
Spraying epoxy inside the frame over active rust will only cover it up ,trapping moisture and will actually speed things up.when the rust finally breaks through the epoxy ,it'll much worse that it would have been if you just left it alone,,,YOU CANT SPRAY ANYTHING OVER RUST and expect it to stop,it only covers it up while the rusting continues with a vengenance...

"NOTHING" STOPS RUST ,Its a natural process of nature reclaiming its elements ,rust (iron oxide) is a natural element steel is not,and nature always wins ,the best you can hope for is to slow it down to a snails pace.

while Ospho does remove rust pretty well it will also convert any microscopic traces of rust left behind which is good as long as its just traces your converting.The converting can also be a curse if you use it to convert heavier rust without removing it first..Its simply covering it up...
water will NOT reactivate the acid in Ospho and start eating the metal but will eventually wash of the protective coating and the rusting will start again ,naturally...Thats where the epoxy comes in its basically a sealer and seals out moisture,when used together AND properly they are an unbeatable combo
So on a boxed frame that you cant get at the rust Ospho isn't a good idea,spraying epoxy is also not a good idea if you cant remove the rust...
now you might be able to sand blast the inside of the frame if you could find some kind of a sandblasting wand ,Then ospho to convert whats left then epoxy ,the wands for fluids are available but I'm not sure about media blasting wands....There are some other ways to get the inside clean and coated but none that I know of are DIY....
Heres what I would do if you just want to cover the rust but don't want to make things worse later on ,use a black lacquer paint through a wand,it wont last long but it wont seal in the rust either, in a year or two when the rust pokes though, spray it again. these body wax undercoatings look like something worth looking into but I haven't actually used them...
Lets not confuse Ospho with Phosphoric acid,they are not the same,phosphoric acid is just an ingredient as it is in etching primer and nobody calls etching primer phosphoric acid.
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:15 AM
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Why couldn't he spray some closed cell foam inside the tube frame after he cleans the inside best he can, sprays Ospro on it and let's it dry good, then the foam sprayed in through a small hole. Then fill the hole with body filler. If it is full of foam no water could get in. The foam would have to be after he completes his welding repairs.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:30 AM
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Ok guys time for an update and some more questions

I've decided to leave that part of the chassis for the time being and will return to it once my welding is better

Today I welded the chassis front crossmember in place and have started to weld the boxes in place which hold the bonnet in position

I think the crossmember welding went quite well, but when I got onto the bonnet boxes the welds became nasty and just made a hissing sound at me

The crossmember welds were on a horizontal surface, but the bonnet boxes were vertical

I didn't change and settings on my welder at all

Power setting : 4
Wire speed : 8
Gas : 14 litre/min
Co2 Argon mix

Can anyone tell me why my welding went from a sizzle to a hiss?
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