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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2010, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
... Just a heads-up, don't make the assumption that if it is a bearing problem that it is at the crank or rods, it could also be a problem at the cam bearings.
Yup, I'm aware of that. However, I'll bet you dimes to donuts it's the mains and/or rod bearings. Reason being, the cam bearings were installed by a pro shop. The rod and main bearings were installed by me. And at the time I couldn't immediately get any plastigauge from the local parts store in order to double check my mic readings so I buttoned things up as they were. And knowing how crappy I am with a mic in my hands, I can almost gurantee I've got some bearings tolerances out of spec.

This time I'll get plastigauge for sure (although my local auto zone told me today they don't carry it at all any longer), even if I have to order it in from the web.

On a more positive note, I'm really proud of myself for figuring out how to get the car up on my Quick Lift (pic below) all by myself with a non-running engine. The starter motor did a fine job. And since the car was always in gear, it didn't even need chocks to hold it from rolling backwards when I would give the starter a rest. (Hey, ya gotta find good news no matter how depressing you day might be.)



Tomorrow I'll pull the bottom end and see what I can see.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2010, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
... you will be alot farther ahead to pull the engine so that you can work from an engine stand, even if the clutch and trans is a pain to reassemble.
I hear ya and you are correct in every rational way imaginable. Unfortunately this is an emotional thing for me. I just can't bring myself to disassemble the car (almost everything has to come off the front end to get the motor out and much of the interior has to come out as well in order to get at the transmission linkage and attachments.)

Also, I changed the rod and main bearing on the 351 in my roadster while the engine was in the car, so I have a pretty good idea what I have in store for myself. Either route is a huge hassle, and I can much better face the prospects of working upside down with oil dripping in my face vs. the prospects of pulling that motor again. I'm not recommending this route in any way, just saying it's the only way I can maintain my sanity and keep moving forward on the car.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2010, 07:08 PM
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Hey, I understand your logic just fine, and with no crossmember under the engine and a lift you certainly have an easier time than most. I was just thinking along the lines of the possibility of having to go farther into the engine than just the lower end. You could still have a problem like an only partially dislodged oil plug, a bleed in the oil system is a bleed regardless of where it is at. A "Pro" shop could have messed up on the cam bearings and didn't notice it, had it happen to me and was the reason I built my own cam bearing tool years ago.

I'd suggest you plastigage the bearings you have now as you go through them just to know what the current clearance is, might be nothing wrong there.

With your ease of access I would probably do exactly what you plan if the car is that big a job just to remove the engine, I've never done a rod, all my stuff is musclecars so removal is easy.

Good Luck, hope it turns into a short and easy fix
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2010, 07:26 PM
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Hey Dewey. Sorry to hear the most recent news. "Do-overs" suck, but I guess it comes with the territory.

I hadn't ever seen one of those "kwik-lifts" before, but they look pretty cool.
I'm not sure about you, but I'm now finding it harder to get my petite little frame (yeah right! LOL) underneath a vehicle than it used to be.

Looks like about $1500.00 USD + shipping for the "Kwik-Lift Special" which it appears you have.

I read the (PDF) brochure on their website, and it sounds like you have to assemble the front supports to the ramp first ... and then follow the instructions in the brochure.

Do I have it right?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
The biggest questions are 1) how do you pressurize the oil and how much pressure is required - for example, is a common squirt type oil can hooked up with a hose enough or do you need some really stout pressure system?

And the really big question is 2) what SHOULD it look like once you pressurize the system. Should there be no oil at all out the sides of the bearings, a small drip, a moderate drip? I think I can imagine, based on your experience, what it should NOT look like. I just don't know what would be considered acceptable.
you could just use one of those plastic pressure sparyers. Just put some put some oil in it and pump it up. Obviously you'll have to cut the hose and adapt to the port on the engine, but you get the idea.

What kind of oil are you running, is it a good quality brand? weight?
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrowhead
What kind of oil are you running, is it a good quality brand? weight?
Well, we probably don't want to open up the "best oil" can of worms, but for start up and cam break in I'm running Chevron Delo LE 5W-40 plus a 16 oz. bottle of Lucas Zinc Plus Break-In Additive.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 07:38 AM
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Hey Dewey:

I changed the bearings in my son's Toyota 4x4 without pulling the engine. I pulled the pan and let the truck sit and drip overnight.

I then put on some shop glasses a took a clean rag under the truck. I still got some oil on me but, it was better than pulling the engine.

Be sure to keep your mouth closed !!


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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
Well, we probably don't want to open up the "best oil" can of worms, but for start up and cam break in I'm running Chevron Delo LE 5W-40 plus a 16 oz. bottle of Lucas Zinc Plus Break-In Additive.
Hello Dewey. I am responding mainly so that I can follow your progress in this thread. It is easier to do that if I make a reply.

Your initial start-up is definitely frustrating and disappointing.

As to the "best" oil for initial start-up "can of worms"... I always suggest and use straight 30 weight non-detergent oil for that. No synthetics or multi-viscosity oils until after a minimum of 2000 miles. I also suggest using a good zinc additive for the break-in process and for at least the first few oil changes. I also do NOT recommend the use of Fram filters. Use Wix or Napa. Change the oil filter immediately after the cam break-in run and again at 50 and 100 and 500 miles. After that 2000-3000 miles for oil changes and filter changes. It is better to change the oil filter often.

Now the work begins. Good luck and much success.

10-15 p.s.i at idle should still be OK. It is somewhat low for a new rebuild. The clearances on the rods & mains are probably on the high end, which yields lower oil pressure as the engine warms up.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66GMC
... it sounds like you have to assemble the front supports to the ramp first ... and then follow the instructions in the brochure.
Oops, sorry I didn't respond to this sooner. I somehow missed it as I was trying to figure things out yesterday.

Yes, the QL consists of two ramps, a rear cross member to jack up the back end of the ramps once the car is on, and two "standards" which hold up the front of the ramps.

Generally I lay things out wherever I want the car in the garage and first insert that rear cross member. I then lift up each ramp at the front end and set it on its standard. There is a big honking pin that holds the ramp to the standard. The entire apparatus can then be moved around a bit to get it exactly where you want it.

Then you drive the car up the ramps, chock it in place, and put a heavy duty floor jack (I got mine from QL as a part of the deal) under the rear cross member to jack it up. There are then two spring loaded legs which swing down near the rear of the ramps and lock into place to permanently hold up the rear. The jack can then be removed.

I think if any of us had our choice (and a lot of $) we would have full height hydraulic lifts in out shops. But that is just not possible for many of us. So the QL becomes a viable option.

I'm really glad I bought mine (I don't know how I would get along without it) but I will make two general comments. First, this thing is well built...which means it is heavy and a bit awkward to handle, especially if you have to move or assemble it on your own. I finally figured out I could fit my transmission jack under one end of a ramp and then lift the other end with a common two-wheel hand cart to move things around pretty easily.

And secondly, the pieces are pretty bulky. So it does take up a good bit of room in the garage even when it is disassembled.

One final note, Danny (the owner of QL) is a great guy and really goes out of his way to make sure his customers are satisfied.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisco
I am responding mainly so that I can follow your progress in this thread.
I'm glad to have you on board for this one Frisco. I started pulling off the bottom end this morning and should have a bunch of pictures and questions about what I am finding by this evening. And I highly value you opinion and observations on this stuff.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 01:44 PM
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Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have toast.

Lots of fines floating in the oil I drained out (at least that's what it looks like to me - sort of reminds me of pearl paint):



Shrapnel picked out of the oil pump screen:



#1 main bearing scoring:



#1 crank journal scoring:



Random rod bearing scoring:



That's as far as I've gotten but it's far enough to know I have to start over in terms of the engine build. From here on out it's pretty much just a salvage operation to see which parts and pieces I might be able to use again on a new build.

I also haven't determined the exact cause of this damage yet. Maybe I'll find that up on the top end somewhere. A couple other good possibilities are debris from the old, used, oil pickup as 66GMC mentioned above. Another possibility is, of all things, the oil dipstick tube. I discovered during the start up process that there was grease and grit inside the tube. This is something I had never even thought about during the rebuild. I cleaned and powder coated the OUTSIDE of the tube, but never once thought about running a bristle brush and some solvent down the INSIDE of the tube. Could have been sand and grease lodged in there that now dropped down into the oil flow and started wiping out bearings which then lead to all the fines and shrapnel. But that is all guesswork at the moment.

Looks like I'm gonna need one of them gubment economic recovery loans to get this project back on track.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 02:34 PM
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doesn't look too bad.. could be worse.. few $ in having the crank turned, and some new bearings... but beyond that, I don't think it would cost much to repair.. even needing new rod bearings won't end up costing too awful much.. my guess would be $300 or so at the high end.. as long as the damage is contained to the crank/ rod journals, I don't think it's going to need a full rebuild..
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 02:46 PM
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Another possibility is machining trash in the crankshaft oil passages. That will cause very similar end results as the pictures you have posted.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 02:58 PM
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I know its hard to say from a distance, but it looks to me like the passages in the block and in the crankshaft were not properly cleaned and rifle brushed, damage like that is the usual result and not usually from stuff left behind in something like the oil pick-up or dipstick tube, etc. It was in the oil system after the pump most likely, if it was something the pump pulled in the filter should have caught more of it, but I will say I am not that familiar with how the filter bypass works on the small Fords, it could have been picked up by the pump and got through the bypass at the filter. An examination of the pump will reveal more, if the pump is tore up.

Was the pump opened up and examined before it was installed?? There is always the chance that machining scarf wasn't properly cleaned out of a new pump at the factory, they should always be checked.

These are some of the reasons most informed hotrodders block the bypass if possible and just use a high flowing filter and keep the oil changed at short intervals to prevent the possibility of the filter being plugged, so the bypass ability isn't even needed and anything the pump picks up will be caught. Bypasses were designed by the factory as a fail safe for neglectful owners who don't change the oil and filter at recommended intervals. Otherwise they are not even needed.

Unless more evidence turns up from a pump examination my first thought looking at the bearings would still be that block and crank oil passages weren't properly cleaned.

Bummer to see this happen, love the rod you've built, tempts me to believe I could do it too. My dream is to copy/clone a steel version of the half fiberglass Bill Thomas Fastback '64 Novas, of which only 3 were ever made and only 1 survives today and it is practically a wreck. Someday I will.

Keep plugging away, you'll get it fixed.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt167
... few $ in having the crank turned, and some new bearings... but beyond that, I don't think it would cost much to repair..
I could be wrong but I'm guessing this stuff got into the cam bearings and the cam journals as well. And then I'm wondering about all those fines or possibly even shrapnel getting into the lifters or the bores.

Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic at this point because of what I've seen so far, but I'm anticipating even more damage as I get things torn apart. And even without visible damage, I'm skittish about where else these metal filings might be.
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