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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
An examination of the pump will reveal more, if the pump is tore up.
I didn't show pics of the pump before because I didn't see any obvious damage there. But here they are.

The impellers looked fine to me. There is a slight wear mark which is uniform and all the way around the outside of the outside rotor, but it doesn't appear to be gouged or scratched from debris.





And here is the housing. There is some light scratching on the top of the housing but nothing on the walls. So I am not sure what to make of that.



And you could be right on track regarding the cleaning of the oil passages, particularly those in the crank itself. I has assumed the block passages were cleaned when the engine was dipped. So I didn't do that myself and therefore it may not have been done. The crank was taken out of the engine while it was at the shop to be bored and then I put it right back into the block. But since there was no machine work done on the crank, I'm not sure how anything nasty could have gotten in those passages. But clearly, I did not clean them and they therefore could have been a source for evil critters.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 03:38 PM
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Sorry to hear your latest findings, Dewey.
Sounds like you've just graduated from the school of hard knocks ... and hindsight is always 20/20 too, isn't it?

As far a "salvage" goes, as Matt167 said, I would expect that the only thing BADLY damaged would be the softer metal of the bearings.

Pistons, rings, and cylinder walls are a little tougher.

Have a close look at the cam lobes, bottoms of the lifters, and lifter bores, too. Make sure that each lifter gets put back in the exact same location if you plan to re-use them. If it were me though, I don't think I would. All of this interruption during camshaft break-in probably hasn't done them any good.

DO talk to your machinist for a better opinion on the cam and lifters ... as my opinion, I must admit, might be a little "tainted" by a recent cam failure.

I guess the bottom line here is that the engine will have to come completely out to get cleaned up and inspected properly, as that schrapnel has obviously found it's way through at least the bottom end. It even looks like a chunk of it there in the front main you have pictured.

Speaking of machinist's opinions though ... don't take them for the "gospel truth". Use your gut. It's YOUR engine, and YOUR peace-of-mind.
Mine advised me to just wash or spray everything external with varsol, and to flush the oil galleys. He said not to worry about all of the filings sitting at the bottom of the pan ... because they would PROBABLY just sit there.

Well, I'm of the opinion that "probably" is like "being a little bit pregnant" ... so the pan did come off, varsol was sprayed liberally, and one of the bearing caps was removed, checked, and retorqued. Even at that, I'm still gambling with another new cam, lifters, and gaskets.

So far ... so good.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbchevfreak
Another possibility is machining trash in the crankshaft oil passages. That will cause very similar end results as the pictures you have posted.
Exactly. Seen that happen enough times with friends that don't clean/soap-and-water after machining. It happens.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 03:55 PM
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Pump looks too good to me to be a source of the trash and too good for it to have been something the pump sucked up. My money is on the trash being in the oil passages of the block and/or crank, just dipping isn't enough, the oil galleys HAVE to be brushed.

My machinist doesn't brush them unless he is assembling the engine too, if all he is doing is dipping and machine work it goes thru the pressure/steam rotary washer when he is done just to help you out but it is the assembler's responsibility to insure the block is clean enough for assembly.

Examine the lifters and cam, have the machinist look and give you an opinion on them as others have stated, but I wouldn't be too worried if it looks good, Fords have a bigger diameter lifter and are not as prone to wiping out cams as is common with the smaller lifters in the GM engines. This is especially true if the cam you are using is on the more mild side, it is the really gnarly ones that have the most problems surviving.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 06:32 PM
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The oil pump looks good enough to reuse.......But I would REPLACE it !!

We used to take lifters apart and clean them. Can you still do that ?

EVERYTHING has to be cleaned again. After the shop is finished take EVERYTHING to the quarter (I wish) car wash. No, wait !! You have a Power Washer.

Wash it till you think it's gonna shrink. Dry it off and coat it with WD-40 before it rusts.

Be sure to wash the heads ,the under side of the intake manifold , the valve covers , timing cover....EVERYTHING.

Let me know if you need some help.


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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2010, 08:27 AM
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I'm deciding which direction to go with this rebuild. One possibility is using a different 302 block. The reason for that is there might be some evidence in the residual oil in the bottom of the pan (pic below isn't the greatest and the coloration may be a bit deceptive) of milkiness in the oil...which could be a crack in the block somewhere leaking water. In the sum total of things I'm just looking at eliminating that potential problem at this juncture as something of an insurance plan.

My question is, with 4-5 minutes of run time, can I safely swap my cam and lifters from the old block into the new one (assuming there is no scoring when I pull the cam AND that I keep the lifters in their correct order)?

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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2010, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have toast.

Lots of fines floating in the oil I drained out (at least that's what it looks like to me - sort of reminds me of pearl paint):



Shrapnel picked out of the oil pump screen:



#1 main bearing scoring:



#1 crank journal scoring:



Random rod bearing scoring:



That's as far as I've gotten but it's far enough to know I have to start over in terms of the engine build. From here on out it's pretty much just a salvage operation to see which parts and pieces I might be able to use again on a new build.

I also haven't determined the exact cause of this damage yet.
Major bummer!

However, all is not lost. Most components are still serviceable.

That's some fairly large shrapnel in the photo with the pencil. Have you found where it possibly came from?

As you are painfully aware at this point, you are faced with a complete tear down and at a minimum the crank will need to be turned. Have the cam bearings replaced for good measure.

Clean, scrub and re-clean the block including any and all passages before re-assembly. Clean, clean and re-clean before assembly.

Check all rod and main clearances before final assembly. Liberally coat the bearings at assembly with a good lubricant of your choice. I still use STP.

I'm not sure what to suggest as to the lifters being re-used. Check the outside surfaces very well. Dis-assemble and clean the inside and re-assemble. If all looks well, re-use may be OK.

Do NOT assume anything. Check everything yourself. Take your time.

P.S.

I think the walleye season either has or is about to open where you live. Take a day off and drown a few worms. ENJOY!!!

Last edited by Frisco; 04-30-2010 at 08:58 AM.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2010, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisco
...I think the walleye season either has or is about to open where you live. Take a day off and drown a few worms.
Yup, tomorrow is the season opener. But just like my car, my BOAT needs a ton of work this year before I put it in the water. So unless my wife and I hop in the canoe, we won't be having fish for supper tomorrow.

And a brief update on the engine. I've now pretty well stripped down the entire motor and on the top end I found nothing unusual. The lifters look good, the bores look good, the cam journals and lobes look good (in fact the protective coating on the lobes is pretty much still visible) and there is no indication anything went amiss in the valve train...like a valve in a piston etc. The pistons were pretty black on the top due to a very rich carb setting, but I think that's par for the course.

Since I haven't found anything anywhere in the engine that has been chewed up (other than the bearings) I'm really tending to think ericnova (and others) had this pegged with debris or shavings in the lower oil passages that wasn't properly cleaned out. It's the only explanation that seems to fit. And I know for a fact the crank passages were not cleaned.

Regarding the cloudy/milky oil in the pan (which I mentioned above) I did find evidence in the lifter valley of water in the system. In fact, there were a number of "bubbles" (water pooled up on the oily valley surface) which were the size of a dime or nickle. Although I couldn't find clear evidence, I'm thinking this had to be a gasket leak around one of the intake water jackets. I could be wrong, but it just seemed like a lot of water in that area of the engine for it to be a crack in the block.

But I'm not taking any chances. I've moved forward with having a new block built up along with a new turned down crank. I'm also having the shop do the rest of the short block work with the exception of the cam, which I will install. Might not be the way some of you would go, but I feel a little more at ease just junking this block and crank and starting with something that has been cleaned and tested properly (and even comes with a warranty).

As always, thanks to you all for hanging in there with me on this "saga". Now it is just a matter of waiting for the machine work and short block to get done and to get this thing running again.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2010, 07:56 PM
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I would say it is very unlikely that the block is cracked. I don't know if your shop does but my guy Magnafluxes every block he bores just to keep comebacks to a minimum, but if it gives you peace of mind to start over that is fine, 302 blocks are not hard to find.

I would not be at all afraid to re-use the cam and lifters if they look good like you said. Ford lifters are larger in diameter than Chevy and this fact greatly reduces their problems with break-in. Cam core is larger too.

You did everything like you should, you saw a problem and shut it down rather than "soldier thru" for 20 minutes.... and wipe the whole works out while all the time praying that it will fix itself or get better. To many times this is the route taken.

You have a setback but all was not lost. Sounds like your diagnosis of the damage is correct and the top half of the engine is unhurt and basically clean, the crank basically got the worst of it.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2010, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
...You did everything like you should, you saw a problem and shut it down rather than "soldier thru" for 20 minutes.... and wipe the whole works out...
Kind of you to say, but had I been more diligent during the engine build I may have been able to avoid the problem altogether. But at this point, it is all water under the dam. Nothing a big fat checkbook won't cure. (Well, a big empty checkbook NOW.)
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2010, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
Well, I have a Fram. I could put a different one on tomorrow (all I have here are Frams) and spin it up with the drill to see if it makes any difference. Any telltale symptoms to look for with a collapse?
Just my experience with Fram filters leads me to change the filter first before tearing into the motor. When I first built my Big Block 461 Chevy and installed it in our S10, I was using a Fram filter too. I primed it with a drill and had my son watching the gauge inside and it went to about 60 psi. I installed the distributor and fired it up, 80 psi. Things were good. Let it set overnight and fired it up the next day, NO oil pressure!!! I removed the distributor and primed it again with my 1/2" drill, put eveything back together and fired it up again, 80 psi. Let it set overnight and fired it up a third time and NO oil pressure. I changed the filter to a Wix and now it pumps up instantly every time at fire up.
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