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Old 08-04-2005, 01:16 PM
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Can I Wax Epoxy primer?

The car has been primered in black epoxy for the flat black look, was wondering if i can use the spray on wax stuff at a wand wash over the epoxy, just for a little more protection from the elements?

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Old 08-04-2005, 02:15 PM
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Sure you can, but it is going to make it shinier..................
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Old 08-04-2005, 02:48 PM
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On top of what Ponch says if its not laid slick it will end up showing white specks.
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Old 08-04-2005, 04:37 PM
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it wont last..... you should top coat the primer with hok clear with a flatening agent. the flattening agent is the trick to that flat black look but with protection. paint will last long time and you can wax it it will not shine as the clear has no shine properties once the flatening agent is added.

i would primer with 2k wet sand with 600 grit till nice n smooth then balck base coat then the hok clear flatened that would get the results you want.

jeff
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Old 08-04-2005, 04:41 PM
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i was told that primer holds moisture if not painted over, like when your car stays outside, or raindays
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Old 08-04-2005, 04:48 PM
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I don't think with an epoxy primer that is too true. If it was a urethane or lacquer primer yes, they are porous and moisture can get through to any baremetal or plastic filler underneath.
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Old 08-04-2005, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenseth17
I don't think with an epoxy primer that is too true. If it was a urethane or lacquer primer yes, they are porous and moisture can get through to any baremetal or plastic filler underneath.
thanks for input, im no painter
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Old 08-04-2005, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffw
it wont last..... you should top coat the primer with hok clear with a flatening agent. the flattening agent is the trick to that flat black look but with protection. paint will last long time and you can wax it it will not shine as the clear has no shine properties once the flatening agent is added.

jeff

I'm afraid I have to strongly disagree with the above statement. Epoxy primers should never be topcoated with clear, regardless of what the clear is, if the coating will ever be exposed to sunlight.

This is a sure-fire recipe for disaster, as in drastic intercoat adhesion failure!

What will happen is the epoxy will rapidly chalk on exposure to sunlight, right out from under the clear, and the clear will peel off in sheets. Anyone ever remember seeing some metallic GM cars with peeling silver metallic topcoats? Another example of UV penetration causing intercoat adhesion failure- only with a clear over an epoxy primer, it will be even worse, and occur much faster. Don't do it!!!!

P.S. Don't imagine that the UV absorbers in the clear will be sufficient to prevent failure...they might make the failure take a few days longer to occur, but it's bound to fail eventually.
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Old 08-04-2005, 08:16 PM
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Powder Bill,
If I can add a few things here.
In this case, it may not be an issue as what he is doing is using the epoxy as a low sheen or aka hot rod black. When people do this on daily drivers they know up front that it will be for a limited time as epoxy will chalk.
So although I don't think he needs to coat the epoxy with clear at this point, if he did the UV inhibitors in the clear can only help and maybe like you say only for days?

This has become a very popular option, using black epoxy as a hot rod finish in the last five years and there are shops that do only this type of work full time.

We do know all the colored epoxies such as white, red, yellow and gray when exposed to the sunlight on a daily bases will start chalking in 3-9 months depending on brand. As you say a very short life!

However black is the exception to the general rule because of the natural UV inhibitors and we are seeing blacks on these Rat Rods that are now 3 and 4 years old and hold up much better than expected.

I have a black epoxy panel that I did a little over two years ago. Two coats of black and let set over night and than applied two coats of a HS clear.
This panel was exposed to the FL black box #2 bulb for 1000 hours and a 13% loss of gloss.
I felt Sun and heat may be the real test, so I put the panel on top of a steel roof. I climb up about once a month and check it with other panels and its doing great. I will get a picture tomorrow of it.

Black epoxy is the exception to the rule.
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Old 08-04-2005, 08:39 PM
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Well, Barry, I certainly respect your knowledge on all things paint-related, plus you've got data on a specific case that I only have a very general "rule of thumb" about. Perhaps I've been too much of an alarmist in this case. It still gives me the "willys" to think about, though. It may not happen nearly as soon as I think, but I'd be leery that some day the clear will start to peel.

I would like to point out an alternative approach that I personally think is much more sound...take that epoxy primer and topcoat it with a flat isocyanate-catalyzed alkyd, such as the infamous John Deere Blitz Black with converter which has been discussed in this forum before. Still get the corrosion resistance of the epoxy, plus better long-term UV resistance than an epoxy plus flat clear. What do you think of this alternative?
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Old 08-04-2005, 09:17 PM
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I've got some black DP90 epoxy on my old plow truck that has turned white as a ghost, after the first three years it was chalking, over ten years later it's white, but still not rusting It's hard for me to believe that a good urethane clear wouldn't protect the epoxy from breakdown, I remember the peelers from the late eighties through the mid nineties well but I thought it was a different cause, when stripped the ecoat on these vehicles seemed fine, wasn't it the basecoat that was going bad? Ford recommended stripping to bare metal while GM and Chrysler was only having the paint removed requiring sanding to the ecoat. ???
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Old 08-04-2005, 10:00 PM
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i don't care about the shine, this was a low buck paint project to hold out till more $$ comes along (plus it looks ******!!) just was wondering if was would help protect the car from some of the elements and keep the spotting down from the rain ect, not that i drive the car in the rain, but sometimes you get caught with your pants down.
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Old 08-04-2005, 10:38 PM
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Hmm thats funny that black would last longer. I never knew black had more natural uv inhibitors. I thought black absorbed light while white reflected, so black would fade and oxidize faster. I can't remember what the exact cause was for the peeling. I think it was skipping some step to save money, but I can't remember exactly what it was. I remember seeing the exact cause somewhere on the net. I do remember stripping many ford trucks down to metal back in the 90's though at the ford dealer.
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Old 08-05-2005, 12:02 AM
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Black Epoxy Works Great Alone

Just thought I would chime in here with something interesting. I am no pro, but I have used dupont products, ppg DP's years ago and the most recent versions. I also used SPI black the last couple of projects. When I was done with a project, I had 2 things: Extra epoxy and a rusty front bumper on a 97 Dodge Dakota. Of-course I just cleaned down with a DA and covered it in epoxy primer about this time last year. The goal was just to use the epoxy and extend the life of the bumper. This truck has been outside every day in open parking lots exposed to full sun, winter's salty road spray, and temps from -30 to 100 plus (Minnesota). Granted they say we do not have as powerful sun as in the South, but its strong enough. Anyway, I cannot see a single sign of chalking. I wash it frequently and use spray wax on the vehicle. It is still black with a semi gloss just like the day I sprayed damneir. And I bet it cost less than $10.00 of product! Luv that stuff.
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Old 08-05-2005, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powderbill
Well, Barry, I certainly respect your knowledge on all things paint-related, plus you've got data on a specific case that I only have a very general "rule of thumb" about. Perhaps I've been too much of an alarmist in this case. It still gives me the "willys" to think about, though. It may not happen nearly as soon as I think, but I'd be leery that some day the clear will start to peel.

I would like to point out an alternative approach that I personally think is much more sound...take that epoxy primer and topcoat it with a flat isocyanate-catalyzed alkyd, such as the infamous John Deere Blitz Black with converter which has been discussed in this forum before. Still get the corrosion resistance of the epoxy, plus better long-term UV resistance than an epoxy plus flat clear. What do you think of this alternative?
*************************************************

I was the same way and learned the embarrassing way!
I found out from a jobber that a shop that does rat rods had been using my black on all their jobs. I told the jobber we need to go warn them.
That was the first time I saw black epoxy that had been driven daily for a few years of course that was after I told him they may get six months out of the epoxy!

Yes, your idea is better but a lot of these are done on budgets and as the one rat rod guy pointed out to me if it gets scratched the customer can wait in office while they spot the epoxy in.

That panel is on the building in an industrial park and has never been cleaned, loaded with acid rain and industrial fall-out but I will get there today and take a before and cleanup picture. I know the clear is etched but looks good last i saw it.
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