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Can someone ID this motor for me?

3K views 28 replies 8 participants last post by  68NovaSS 
#1 ·
Its in a '77 F150 fwd. The guy who sold it to me told me it was a 400. If no one can tell right off the bat, then what? Take the head off and measure the bore and stroke? I thought I saw something that looked like #'s under the starter (passenger side of the block). Maybe I should check the VIN before I waste your time. It may be the original motor.
 

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#4 ·
cobalt327 said:
Looks like a 400M to me, HERE is a build-up by HR mag.
Thanks, Mark. I guess that's what you folks call a 'smogger'. That carb should be right at home with it. I'm looking into what I could possibly do to give it more low end torque for climbing hills. Maybe even a mild turbo with FI or even blow-threw because I want to take it into the mountains.
 
#5 ·
The 400M had low HP ratings from the factory, but it has a 4" stroke, a 4" bore and is much like a stroked 351C w/a tall deck. That means the heads will flow adequately and if the right parts are used, the engine can make good power and torque.

But once you start talking turbos, I'm drawing a blank. You'd need forged pistons to be safe, and the set-up would take a good amount of fabrication- but it could be done, I suppose.

Another option is to use a bigger engine to start with, like a 460.
 
#6 ·
Yep, it looks like a 351M/400 alright ... and it could be either as the cylinder blocks are identical for both engines. You *might* get lucky and find a metal tag under the coil bracket.

As has already been said, these engines can be "hot-rodded" ... but IMO, the 460 would be a better platform.

Judging by the paint job and the silicone ... I'd say that someone has recently done some work on that engine. But whether it's been freshened, patched, rebuilt or remanufactured ... it's hard to say.
 
#7 · (Edited)
It's true the 351M/400 looks like the 400M (both part of the "335 series" family of engines, along w/the 351C). Even the designation "351M/400" confuses the issue, IMO.

I've read the dampers are different (400M thicker), but w/o the two to compare, that's no help w/o the actual dimension- which I don't currently have. The only real difference is in the cranks- the 351 has a 3.5" stroke, the 400 has a 4" stroke (biggest Ford stroke).

There will be a VIN designation for what engine came in the truck. In 1977, this would be "H" if a 351M/400, "S" if the 400M.

Check your VIN Number:
Fourth character is the Engine Code

A - 6 cyl - 240cid - 1BBL carb - 1973-74
B - 6 cyl - 300 cid - 1BBL carb - 1973-80
G - V8 - 302cid - 2BBL carb - 1973-80
H - V8 - 351cid - 2BBL carb - 1973-80
Y - V8 - 360cid - 2BBL carb - 1973-76
H - V8 - 390cid - 2BBL carb - 1973-76
M - V8 - 390cid - 4BBL carb - 1974-78
S - V8 - 400cid - 2BBL carb - 1977-80
J - V8 - 460cid - 4BBL carb - 1973-80

The block and head casting numbers are supposed to be the same, and deck height, heads, intake are all identical for all practical purposes, it seems.

One improvement can be made fairly easily, that is to change the timing set to a non retarded aftermarket timing set. From around '73 or so, the cam timing was retarded to meet emissions requirements. If it looks like the front of the engine has been apart, this may have been done already.

Changing the timing set and adding the 4-barrel intake/carb with cold air feeding the carb and a set of headers w/dual exhaust that include low restriction mufflers and an "X" or "H" connection between the two sides located after the collector but before the mufflers, are the most beneficial mods that can be easily and relatively cheaply made. A good tuneup will help, too.

Swapping cams is another option, but the heads come as a non adjustable valve train that have to be modified to make them adjustable in order to use an aftermarket cam. Things start to get spendy at and beyond this stage.

Good INFO SITE.

Some more INFO.

VIN number decoder. Entering your VIN will tell you about your truck.
 
#8 ·
There is no 400M.

The 335 Engine Series is comprised of the 351C/351M and 400.

C (Cleveland) and/or M (Modified) differentiate the 351 CI displacement engines, the C being low deck and the M high deck (same as 400 block).

The 351C was discontinued in 1974 and the 351M was introduced in 1975 so as both engines (351M/400) could use one block.
 
#9 ·
I wouldn't let it bother you too much- Chevy never called their 396 BBC engine a "BBC", either- but it's known what you mean when you type 396 BBC, just like it's known that a "400M" is a Ford 400cid engine.

So, while "400" may well be the one and only true correct designation for the 400M, I will continue to use 400M (incorrect as it may be) as a way to discern it from any other 400 engine, or typing out "400 Ford" or 335 series 400", or "the 400 Ford that looks like the 351M engine", etc. It is just easier and it assures there's no confusion. ;)
 
#12 ·
cobalt327 said:
I wouldn't let it bother you too much- Chevy never called their 396 BBC engine a "BBC", either- but it's known what you mean when you type 396 BBC, just like it's known that a "400M" is a Ford 400cid engine.

So, while "400" may well be the one and only true correct designation for the 400M, I will continue to use 400M

(incorrect as it may be) as a way to discern it from any other 400 engine, or typing out "400 Ford" or 335 series 400", or "the 400 Ford that looks like the 351M engine", etc.

It is just easier and it assures there's no confusion. ;)
While it may help you in your seemingly limitless fog, you are posting incorrect information and causing further confusion among others.

The 400 335 Series was released in 1971 to replace the 390 FE in passenger car service. With the previous release of the 351C in 1970, FORD had two different block heights in the same engine family, hence two different engines.

The 351C was discontinued after the 1974 model year it's having been used as both a passenger car and performance engine.

FORD simply took the 400 block, de-stroked it and made an engine that was available for replacement for the 351C 2V in passenger car service and the 360 FE in light truck service. The FE 390 was subsequently discontinued from service in the light truck lineup. FORD now had two engine sizes available for service using one block instead of two ($$$).

The proper nomenclature is 351M/400. MODIFIED is the general description used by FORD to differentiate the new engine from the previous 351C and the 351W.

The M designation is commonly referred to “Modified”, and is derived from the use of both "Cleveland" (block, heads) and "Windsor" (crankshaft) components in the same engine. A "Modification" for the parts intended application so to speak.

This gave FORD a small displacement engine series (302-351W), a mid-size engine series (351M-400) and a large size engine series (429-460) to cover all possible needs.
In all discussions of Ford V8 engines, it is extremely important to understand that Ford, unlike its competitors at the time, did not have just small block and big block engines. Ford engines generally came in three size ranges, sized to best suit the application.
I think you need to stay with GM. It doesn't seem to tax you as much.
 
#14 ·
cobalt327 said:
I'm sorry for you if you cannot grasp the concept of using "400M".
Don't concern yourself. I do not live in a fantasy world where I can name anything as to my interpretations as do you. I would rather use FOMOCO terms so all will have a chance of understanding what the subject being discussed is actually about.

This wouldn't have anything to do w/

Post #15, now would it? :rolleyes:
I don't think so. Could you please enlighten me as you have previously stated you posted your last word on that subject and here you are again.

Guess that is part of making things up as you go.

Maybe consider getting that wild hair clipped. Giggling makes you appear childish.
 
#15 ·
In the HAMB thread you quoted from, that contains this:
The 400 335 Series was released in 1971 to replace...
also has guys posting "400M" as a way to ID that particular engine.



In all discussions of Ford V8 engines, it is extremely important to understand that Ford, unlike its competitors at the time, did not have just small block and big block engines. Ford engines generally came in three size ranges, sized to best suit the application.
Interestingly, the SAME article/wiki page you quoted from above, ALSO has this passage (next to the last paragraph):
The medium range of displacement needs was met by the 400M engine, a Cleveland-style block with a raised deck allowing it to use a longer stroke crankshaft...
Live by the wiki, die by the wiki. :mwink:

Since Google is your friend, try taking a look here, at some of the 296,000-odd hits for "400m engine".

Just so we're clear on this- as I said previously- I will continue to use "400M" when referring to the 335 series 400cid Ford engine. You ain't gotta like it- but you WILL deal w/it.

Lastly, the OP didn’t seem to have any problem understanding me- and the OP is who I was addressing in the first place.

Besides, if that’s ALL you are able to find “wrong” w/my posts, I’ll call that pretty damn good for someone lost in a "seemingly limitless fog"! LOL

You are dismissed.
 
#16 ·
What in the world have I come across here?

cobalt327 said:
In the HAMB thread you quoted from, that contains this: also has guys posting "400M" as a way to ID that particular engine.
And his mistake makes the term acceptable in your world?

Interestingly, the SAME article/wiki page you quoted from above, ALSO has this passage (next to the last paragraph).
Uh...Did you happen to notice my join date?

In all discussions of Ford V8 engines, it is extremely important to understand that Ford, unlike its competitors at the time, did not have just small block and big block engines. Ford engines generally came in three size ranges, sized to best suit the application.
I was using that well before WIKI became so popular. How do you think it was sourced?

WIKI is a sham as facts are not usually researched prior to entry. Your misnomer of 400M reflects that. WIKI is the last place in the world I would look for fact or refer another to information.

Live by the wiki, die by the wiki. :mwink:
That is obviously why you are an editor, correct?

Since Google is your friend, try taking a look here, at some of the 296,000-odd hits for "400m engine".
And that simply shows that there are that number of misinformed morons such as yourself.

Just so we're clear on this- as I said previously- I will continue to use "400M" when referring to the 335 series 400cid Ford engine. You ain't gotta like it- but you WILL deal w/it.
I could care less what you do. You have demonstrated yourself to be a non-caring moron. And yes, I have to deal with others like yourself on a daily basis. I don't like it but I also do not have to accept it.

And if you keep using this incorrect term, what other fallacies and wives tales are you still passing on?

Lastly, the OP didn’t seem to have any problem understanding me- and the OP is who I was addressing in the first place.
He described the engine correctly.

Had you described it as a B BLOCK he would have understood you as he came here for info and got another wives tale instead.

Besides, if that’s ALL you are able to find “wrong” w/my posts, I’ll call that pretty damn good for someone lost in a "seemingly limitless fog"! LOL

You are dismissed.
You really need to see someone about that wild hair you have, The giggling is detracting from whatever little credence you have.

I have not been here in quite a while as I do not enjoy mostly GM posts on a continual basis. What I find is another self-described expert giving out incorrect information.
 
#17 ·
sunbelt57 said:
Its in a '77 F150 fwd. The guy who sold it to me told me it was a 400. If no one can tell right off the bat, then what?

Take the head off and measure the bore and stroke?

I thought I saw something that looked like #'s under the starter (passenger side of the block). Maybe I should check the VIN before I waste your time. It may be the original motor.
There is no way to easily visually differentiate a 351M/400NO M. They both use the same basic engine parts (block-heads-intakes) so Casting I.D. Nos will be of little help.

The balancers are different, but I have not come across a detailed explanation of the difference(s).

If you are lucky, the VECI Decal will still be readable. Also, there should be stamped on the block a partial VIN of the donor vehicle. This will easily I.D. it. Otherwise, you are going to have to pull a head. The dowel trick is not concise because of the angle of the spark plug port on the 335 SERIES.

Now see how easy that was?

-DIFFERENTIATING THE 335 SERIES ENGINE FAMILY-

-INTERNET MYTHS, LEGENDS AND MISNOMERS-
 
#19 ·
KULTULZ said:
The balancers are different, but I have not come across a detailed explanation of the difference(s).
Below are passenger car balancer descriptions-

Harmonic Balancer- OEM repl. All 400NO M.

Casting I.D. No- D2AE-C
Service PN- D2AZ-6316-C 73/74 74/76 W/O AC

Casting I.D. No- D5AE 6316-DA
Service PN- D5AZ 6316-B 75/76 A/C


Harmonic Balancer- OEM repl. All 351M 75/

Casting I.D. Nos- D5AE-A/D5AE-AA/AB
Service PN- D5AZ-6316-A W/O A/C

Casting I.D. No- D5AE-CA
Service PN- D5AZ 6316-B A/C

Light Truck and BRONCO applications will most likely have a T as the third character in the Casting I.D. Prefix XXTX-XX

The above info will give you an idea of how complicated the subject can get-
 
#20 ·
bigdog7373 said:
:welcome:

I don't understand why you have to make such a big deal about an abbreviation. Why don't you just stick to answering the op's questions instead of *****in about people saying 400m.
Well, that's understandable.

BTW- The OP described the engine correctly.

Either you are going to offer correct information or you are not.

When you want to know something, do you want a bunch of wives tales or do you want facts?

When you speak GHETTO MACHINE LANGUAGE, do you describe the CHEV 400 as a SBC or BBC? Why are the 348/409 referred to as W-SERIES?
 
#22 · (Edited)
KULTULZ said:
When you speak GHETTO MACHINE LANGUAGE, do you describe the CHEV 400 as a SBC or BBC?
Technically speaking, neither. It's either a "Mk. IV V8" or a "Small V8" (after the big blocks came out), according to the factory Chevrolet manual. The factory has used "400" to describe BOTH a BBC and a SBC.

Why are the 348/409 referred to as W-SERIES?
Same reason a 400M is called a 400M. LOL
 
#23 · (Edited)
cobalt327 said:
Technically speaking, neither. It's either a "Mk. IV V8" or a "Small V8" (after the big blocks came out), according to the factory Chevrolet manual. The factory has used "400" to describe BOTH a BBC and a SBC.
But THANK YOU for making my point clear as glass for me!

Just as "BBC" and "SBC", etc. has become part of the vernacular, so has "400M". It has NADA to do w/"correctness"- neither factory has used these terms "officially"- it has EVERYTHING to do w/RECOGNITION.

Show me ONE guy who doesn't understand "400M" and I'll show you a tyro of epic proportion. Same as w/"SBC" or "BBC".

EDIT- You badmouthed Wiki pretty good. I am a Crankshaft Coalition Wiki "editor"- and PROUDLY so. What of it? So are many members here- that's how good, reliable, peer-reviewed info becomes available for public use. And, I see YOU are also a wiki “editor”, albeit w/but one to your credit. Better than none, I suppose. LOL
 
#25 ·
cobalt327 said:
EDIT- You badmouthed Wiki pretty good. I am a Crankshaft Coalition Wiki "editor"- and PROUDLY so. What of it? So are many members here- that's how good, reliable, peer-reviewed info becomes available for public use. And, I see YOU are also a wiki “editor”, albeit w/but one to your credit. Better than none, I suppose. LOL
I have read many of the contributions by so-called editors and many are laughable. I would hate to actually source yours.

The ONE I edited was for safety not information.
 
#26 ·
68NovaSS said:
Name calling and personal attacks are against policy, a violation of the gudelines and will not be tolerated, period.
If I have done something that offends either you or board policy, hit the DELETE button.

While this board may allow misinformation to be posted, I will surely call the contributor on it. If all that is going to be posted is misinformation then I surely have no business being here.

Where is your policy regarding one's posting misinformation and then his/her/it's/mutants continuing ignorance when called on it?
 
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