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Old 03-05-2014, 12:24 AM
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Can you have spark with bad crank sensor?

Is it possible to have either a profile ignition pickup (P.I.P.) on your distributer or a crankshaft sensor on your more modern engine that have failed yet still provide good spark? And does that basically amount to spark not occuring at the right time?

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Old 03-05-2014, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One to Remember View Post
Is it possible to have either a profile ignition pickup (P.I.P.) on your distributer or a crankshaft sensor on your more modern engine that have failed yet still provide good spark? And does that basically amount to spark not occuring at the right time?
NO and NO. If the PIP is bad ,how could it signal to provide spark? If it is sparking , the PIP must be OK.
The ecm could provide spark at the wrong time, but while cranking the timing is at base timing through the ignition module,not the ECM. Also not likely to be your problem.

1: do you have hot blue spark while cranking the engine? Also have you verified Ignition timing?
2: Have you verified Fuel Pressure?
3: Have you performed a compression test?
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Old 03-05-2014, 04:57 PM
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NO and NO. If the PIP is bad ,how could it signal to provide spark? If it is sparking , the PIP must be OK.
The ecm could provide spark at the wrong time, but while cranking the timing is at base timing through the ignition module,not the ECM. Also not likely to be your problem.

1: do you have hot blue spark while cranking the engine? Also have you verified Ignition timing?
2: Have you verified Fuel Pressure?
3: Have you performed a compression test?
of course i have the 3 things for start up thats why my focus has been on electronics and computer parts. its been put in time various times, fuel preassure is in specs. the problem is the car is acting like it cant tell i put it in time or something. both icm's pass their test at the store. i wasnt saying the PIP was blocking spark i was saying since it is a crank sensor maybe its not seeing my crank shaft in its actual position. and i know its not off the compression stroke either when i tdc it. it has no mechanical reason to be behaving like this. ive traced alot of wires and didnt see any damage either. two good ICMs, two good ECMs, new plugs, good wires, spark isnt orange, two good coils also. the best i could think was the ECM relay has gone bad but i cant even locate the relay unless its relay is in the main relay box above the engine fan. chain is new, old one really wasnt too bad honestly.

has to be something that appears to be working but isnt like maybe a weak coil or a sensor. again though i cant even run codes because my cel wont turn on anymore.
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:09 PM
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I this a GM???
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Old 03-07-2014, 04:07 PM
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I this a GM???
no its a ford taurus or mercury sable however u wanna look at it.
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:51 PM
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have you checked to see that the injectors are firing. If you have crank no start and everything is working the plugs should be soaked. Have you tried a little fuel in the TB. have you checked the fuel to make sure it is gas and not full of water.
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:38 AM
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Pull spark plugs. If they are soaked, check the coolant SENSOR for the proper reading. If it reads -40, the plugs should be soaked, and you get a no start because it's flooded.
No cel light, means the computer is dead, or the bulb is bad. No light means not communicating with the ECM. If crank SENSOR is bad, the ecm cannot find number one to begin with, and you get no spark. And, no injector pulse. Unless you also have a cam SENSOR. Then, you get fuel.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:20 PM
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One More Time - I remember you saying a guy at the Taurus website told you to move the dizzy, and you did, and said it ran one time then puked.
That tells me your timing chain either jumped, or the roll pin in the dizzy has sheared, and is catching in the right spot some times making it run.
Now you are saying there is no check engine light.
Have you checked for power at the ECM?
Have you checked Grounds to the ecm and the 2 little grounds at the batterynegative?
I have also seen ignition switches come apart, not powering up some of the circuits.
It sounds to me like you have a timing chain/distributor problem and have now developed an electrical issue as well.
Just because the check engine light doesn't come on , does not mean you have a bad ECM. If it has no power or a bad ground it may also not illuminate due to that.
Check the basics. Verify powers and grounds at THE ECM CONNECTOR.
Then check the roll pin in the dizzy as it may have sheared. I have seen that happen.
Also a 3.0 liter ( engine VIN "U") Overhead valve (pushrod motor) is not an interference engine. They have a sensor in the dizzy that is called the crank sensor.There technically is no cam sensor.
A crank and cam sensor will be used on a more sophisticated EFI ,that employs Sequential injection.Your old 3.0 doesn't use a "cam" sensor, and therefore is a "Batch fire" injection system
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:33 PM
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Terminal 40 and 60 in the ECM connector will be grounds.
Terminal 1 will be Battery 12 volts with key off.
Terminal 37 and 57will be hot with the key on.This circuit powers through the EEC IV relay, be sure it "clicks" when turning the key on.The fuel pump relay will also cycle on at that time and will cycle back off after 2 seconds.That is the fuel pump prime circuit.Be sure they are working.
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:35 PM
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These are the 2 grounds I was talking about.They break out of the harness near the battery negative.They absolutely need to be connected to the ground terminal.
Check them well.If needed put a ring terminal on each and secure them under the nut/bolt on the negative cable
you can see someone has already cobbled these 2.
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Old 03-14-2014, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LATECH View Post
NO and NO. If the PIP is bad ,how could it signal to provide spark? If it is sparking , the PIP must be OK.
The ecm could provide spark at the wrong time, but while cranking the timing is at base timing through the ignition module,not the ECM. Also not likely to be your problem.

1: do you have hot blue spark while cranking the engine? Also have you verified Ignition timing?
2: Have you verified Fuel Pressure?
3: Have you performed a compression test?
I think I would tend to disagree with you.

The crankshaft sensor tells the ignition module that is time to send spark from the coil to the distributor. The distributor will then send spark to the plug wire that the rotor is closest to (firing). It may not be the right plug wire and it might be firing early or late, but it will fire the spark to the closest plug wire that is closest to the rotor's location.
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
I think I would tend to disagree with you.

The crankshaft sensor tells the ignition module that is time to send spark from the coil to the distributor. The distributor will then send spark to the plug wire that the rotor is closest to (firing). It may not be the right plug wire and it might be firing early or late, but it will fire the spark to the closest plug wire that is closest to the rotor's location.
That is a perfect description of what would happen if the timing chain jumped , or the dizzy gear sheared the roll pin. So you are actually agreeing with me. LOL
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:51 AM
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have you checked to see that the injectors are firing. If you have crank no start and everything is working the plugs should be soaked. Have you tried a little fuel in the TB. have you checked the fuel to make sure it is gas and not full of water.
yes i have verified the injectors are firing. fuel in the tb helped a little bit for a second. Well carb cleaner rather. i know its good fuel. its relatively new fuel too.
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Old 04-22-2014, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by LATECH View Post
One More Time - I remember you saying a guy at the Taurus website told you to move the dizzy, and you did, and said it ran one time then puked.
Yes it ran good, well sufficient. After I drove it a few hundred feet then returned to my lot and parked I came back the next morning to the same issue. I put it back in time manually by turning the engine by hand, that got it to work two or 3 more times then after awhile that wouldnt even work. Even then I would label it an inconsistency because doing the exact same thing ten times might get 2 or 3 good results.
Quote:
That tells me your timing chain either jumped, or the roll pin in the dizzy has sheared, and is catching in the right spot some times making it run.
Odly I got the most consistent cranks with the timing cover off which may just be a coincidence. But old chain was kinda decent, gap wasnt ridiculous but I just replaced it anyway so the chain is good. Both gears looked nice.
I am not sure what you mean by roll pin? The pin in the gear? How do I check to see if it rolls because everything seems tight and solid and not broken but I cant see how the gear acts once I place the dizzy back in I suppose.
Quote:
Now you are saying there is no check engine light.
Have you checked for power at the ECM?
Have you checked Grounds to the ecm and the 2 little grounds at the batterynegative?
I have also seen ignition switches come apart, not powering up some of the circuits.
I started talking about the CEL due to me deciding I would try to use the paper clip to get some codes. Thats when i noticed the light not coming on anymore but actually dont know when it stopped lighting up period. I checked a few of the pins in the ribbon connector going into the ECM/ECU/PCM most came up good based on the numbers one site said they should be but that site clarified nothing in regards to what readings meant or what the pin hole pertained too so I'm not sure about those results.
I have not done the grounds test yet though.
Quote:
It sounds to me like you have a timing chain/distributor problem and have now developed an electrical issue as well.
Just because the check engine light doesn't come on , does not mean you have a bad ECM. If it has no power or a bad ground it may also not illuminate due to that.
The head light dash lamp doesnt light up either so it might be bulb issues. I know that the coil, chain, ICM, Timing gears, injectors, fuel flow, compression, spark, are all activating. The only thing I havent done is look at the PIP sensor/crank sensor. I thought maybe a symptom of it being bad would be spark at the wrong moment skewing timing. I believe its one in the same as the hall effect sensor. Me changing the dizzy back the morning after itt ran did not fix anything again so maybe it is damaged where you said?
Quote:
Check the basics. Verify powers and grounds at THE ECM CONNECTOR.
Then check the roll pin in the dizzy as it may have sheared. I have seen that happen.
Also a 3.0 liter ( engine VIN "U") Overhead valve (pushrod motor) is not an interference engine. They have a sensor in the dizzy that is called the crank sensor.There technically is no cam sensor.
A crank and cam sensor will be used on a more sophisticated EFI ,that employs Sequential injection.Your old 3.0 doesn't use a "cam" sensor, and therefore is a "Batch fire" injection system
[/quote]
Again how obvious is the damage to the naked eye if the roll pin has sheared? i know it didnt have a counterpart to the cam sensor but confusion was created with multiple names for multiple parts then some people and sites calling the PIP a type of cam sensor or its forerunner. if i see that the dizzy isnt sheared and the ecm is grounded and connected then what? I have taken the liberty of buying a scan tool since the shop its at said some of my wiring splicing confused them even though it was just connecting three grounds wires directly too the battery ground instead of their old connector which done the same thing. When I tow it to my home I will investigate your ECM procedure.
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Old 04-22-2014, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by LATECH View Post
Terminal 40 and 60 in the ECM connector will be grounds.
Terminal 1 will be Battery 12 volts with key off.
Terminal 37 and 57will be hot with the key on.This circuit powers through the EEC IV relay, be sure it "clicks" when turning the key on.The fuel pump relay will also cycle on at that time and will cycle back off after 2 seconds.That is the fuel pump prime circuit.Be sure they are working.
i know the pump is working and strong. im gonna use the meter and obviously the volt setting for 1 and im assuming you wont me to have the the neg prod in 40 or 60 when the pos is in 1. what numbers should i see on 37 and 57 when i turn the key on?
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