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Carb issue w/ Holley SA 570 on a 5.0 Ford

4K views 17 replies 5 participants last post by  eric32 
#1 ·
New engine---well rebuilt 5.0 HO for my lil Falcon based Ranchero

Last August, I finally got around to firing it up for the first time.

The thing fired right up and idled just fine on it's own---maybe a bit fast.
Let it run for a minute or two and shut it off to go about doing other things.

5.0 Ford with E303 roller cam
New Holley Street Avenger 570 carb.

Never did get around to actually timing the thing until my attempts this week.
The car fired right up but would not idle
best I could get was about 5 seconds at 2000rpm before it quit running
Fired right up again but will not run

Checked the fuel level in the bowls and the front bowl just poured out fuel.

New fuel---old fuel blown from lines

Today---changed needle/seat assy in both front and rear
Changed the Accell pump diaphragm and power valve
lowered float setting a bit for insurance
Hoped for different results

Nope---still the same thing
I can keep it running at about 2500 if I keep feathering the throttle, but as soon as I stop the car dies.

Seems like it is running out of fuel---but not sure

Pump it one time--car refires instantly---but will not stay running

Would like to get this thing idling on it's own so I can go thru some timing procedures.

Any ideas at to what I may be missing??

It idled a few months ago---why not now??
 
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#2 ·
Vacuum leak possibly. I would start by looking at those vacuum lines - over the winter rodents may have decided on a meal of rubber tubing - had that problem on a '23 'bucket years back. Also, if you had a backfire on start up, may have blown a line or cap off or even split it.

Then there is that weak fuel pump, spun/loose camshaft eccentric assuming you went mech. pump (and hopefully used a solid eccentric instead of that weak two piece POS and a longer drive pin), collapsed or mostly plugged fuel filter.

This is a 'spun' 2 piece eccentric:



..and the new one:



Dave W
 
#3 ·
From my own experience trust me if your timing is off it can cause all kinds of tuning issues and sometimes make it near impossible to even get a engine running. On my small block chevy last year early fall time I had changed out my cap and rotor and installed a msd box and I marked down where my distributor was sitting at and at the same time I got a new carb that had yet to be tuned.

Needless to say after I put everything back together and installed the new carb with base settings I had a hard time getting the thing to even idle let alone stay running long enough. Long story short I spent a good three days trying to get the thing running and adjusting this and that on my carb and finally I was able to get it running and kept thinking to myself why is it running so bad when I have my carb set up for initial running. I looked at my mark on my distributor that I made and started to second guess so I finally after making things so hard on myself I got my timing light out and I thought it was correct of where I once had it and should have been 16 degrees of initial timing and even though I was very close on the mark I marked down I was shocked that even though it was very close it still was way off over 10 plus degrees and no wonder I had so many issues. After I reset my timing all of my tuning issues went away outside of a few adjustments on my calibration.

Timing first before anything else and even if you think your sure just recheck again to verify and if I did that everything else would have been a breeze. Timing first and then ignition and third the carb. Its always better to go in that order as each plays a part in how the other will function.
On the carb I start with checking fuel pressure and then go from there and if any issues come up I use a check list and start checking things one spot at a time and I always keep notes of any issues and have made almost a book over the last 5 years and sometimes look back at my notes to see if I had this issue before and then try with what worked and cured my issue.
 
#4 ·
I just found the specs on your cam and I am running a slightly bigger 219/227 @50 hydraulic roller cam from lunati in my small block chevy and you will need around 16 degrees of initial timing give or take a little as that cam is far from a stock cam and will be slightly more picky for fine tuning wise vs a stock spec cam but is still doable with out too much of a hassle to get it running good as compared to a even way bigger cam.
 
#5 ·
No, I disagree 16* is too much initial for that 'E' cam unless you like to hear engine 'rattle'. I have that very same camshaft in my 5.0 and 12* is the most I have ever been able, with 93 octane, to run with stock compression (9 - 10), GT40P minimally modified heads and an MSD billet distributor set at the 'E' curve. I generally leave it around 10 for gasoline variations.

You cannot assume that one manufacturer's engine with a Grind X camshaft will 'work' the same as another manufacturer's engine.
 
#6 ·
It ran just fine in August----but I only let it run a few minutes.
No changes since then other than the needle seat and related yesterday.

Spoke with a Holley tech and he mentioned that the fluid they use for
'wet testing' does get kinda gooey over time.
Suggested complete disassemble and blow everything out with carb cleaner til passages are clear.
If that won't work--I may send it back to them for repair

Carb was bought over a year before it was installed
(and BTW--not a 570 SA--just a standard 600)

he thought that maybe I did not run long enough to flush out all the traces of that fluid---probably have a plugged passage somewhere.

Who buys a carb 2 years before it is needed?? Me, I guess

Again--one pump and instant fire

I have the Eddy carb that used to be on my 59 Elky
It's a 750 (EDL1411) and way to big for the little SBF but it may be okay just to get it running and set timing and stuff.

I wonder if I can jet that down enough for the lil Ford engine and still be
a useful carb??
 
#8 ·
I have the Eddy carb that used to be on my 59 Elky
It's a 750 (EDL1411) and way to big for the little SBF but it may be okay just to get it running and set timing and stuff.

I wonder if I can jet that down enough for the lil Ford engine and still be
a useful carb??
I really have a hard time 'buying' Holley's reasoning as there are probably truck loads of their carbs that are sitting somewhere for months if not years waiting use, but .....:rolleyes:

That 750 Edelbrock will probably run but your volumetric efficiency with a 1-11/16 throttle bore vs 1-7/16 on a 1406 600 cfm will be terrible with hohum fuel atomization even with rejetting. Air just can't make enough speed through the venturi with a 302 cid engine (air pump). Lots of folks will over carb an engine and wonder why their DD performance is not very good. If you use that usual formula to size a carb, it will put your 5.0/302 into a 500 cfm though a 600 seems to work very well with that camshaft.
 
#7 ·
Well for one thing my small block is a chevy and not a ford and as such is a different engine as I have not messed with a ford before and I don't know how much compression he has as well but I am at around 9:1 so I run fine on 89 octane with no issues.

With higher compression then yes it might be too much but when you get into the 220 @50 range of a camshaft and also the lobe separation angle it will require more timing but yet also many times the mechanical advance will have to be limited as well. I run 16 degrees initial but also only draw in 15 degrees give or take a few of mechanical timing and I get around 32 degrees at the most and its in around 3000 rpm so that also plays in my favor for running lesser octane.

Some basic guide line settings are 12-16 degrees of initial timing for a camshaft of that size range but its not etched in stone just like carburetor size. Its just a suggestion from my experience.
 
#10 ·
Pull that Holley completely apart for a good look and clean up. There is this other problem - called bad gas rather then their test fluid. There have also been a few quality problems as well, depending on when it was manufactured (during their bankruptcy period?) so an internal look, soak, blowout and reassembly with some new gaskets might be a good idea. Good luck - and make sure you let us know what you find.

Question - was your Falcon originally a 260 V8 powered car? Just curious as those little engines really made that car some fun and a mild 302 would be better yet.

Dave W
 
#11 ·
Factory 289/4spd

My uncle killed that engine in short order.
by 1985 it was on it's 2nd 302, and that is the engine
I killed by getting a bit too spirited:D.

That thing is a blast to drive---can park it anywhere and not really have to worry about it.

Spouse calls it my "Clown Car"-----she may have a point.
That car was a lot bigger when I was a kid----now, I more put it on than get in:D.

I was hoping to crash the central Texas ElCamino gathering with it at the end of the month. I usually take both of my ElCaminos (59-66) with me.
And since I have been part of this thing for years I wanted to just stir the pot
and park a Ford next to them all.

I have already crashed a couple of little local gatherings with it---and then stole their beer:mwink:
 
#12 ·
I understand about putting a car on as that's what I have to do with my '31 Ford roadster as I'm '6'4" and 210 and with a 5-6 inch set back engine ......

The reason for my question is that my former brother in law had a '64(?)Futura hardtop with a 260. I did most of the mechanicing as his tool skills were beyond hopeless (and he was an ultra high voltage utility lineman???) on it so had several decent rides :)nono:) after doing some work. It didn't run like my '63-1/2 406cid powered car, but was sure fun regardless.

They are a good match for a '59 - '60s Elky, even yours, I'm sure:eek:
Dave W
 
#13 ·
Bringing this back up
Holley 80457 600cfm

Took this thing completely apart today and sprayed and blew it it out
Nothing really jumped out at me and all the passages are clear.
Even ran some wire strands thru the tiny orifices.

Now--- a question I have is directly related to the accelerator pump circuit.
Took the little spray nozzles and blew them out pretty good (probably did not have to as that circuit was working{I think}.).

Well---while I was flipping the body over and around a needle (or maybe a pintle is a better word) fell out of that area.
Not knowing where exactly this part dropped from, I have a look at the blown apart diagram of a general 4150/4160 carb.

The pictures show >>needle>>weight>>>ball.
So--what I am getting at, since these carbs have changed over the years is ---
Does the 80457 have all these parts or just the heavyish pintle?

Gonna try bolting it on again during the week and give it another try.
If the attempt is a failure---will probably send it back to Holley for repairs.
 
#14 ·
Newer carbs use just the needle, older 60's-early 70's carbs have the ball with a weight dropped in on top of it.

Drops in the accelerator nozzle feed passage right below the nozzle screw, needle end faces down. It is a check valve to keep accelerator passage fuel from draining back to the bowl. ;)
 
#16 · (Edited)
Car is back up and running with the Holley

Seems I may have overlooked a vacuum leak---could not get the thing going
so how would I check????

Apparently, the 'off the shelf' gaskets are just a hair too narrow
for the stock Ford spacer plate.

The bottom of the spacer is not solid, and I think the the gasket may have gotten a bit moist when first fired up last August, and then dried out some, and then pulled away from from the walls of the "Spacer to Manifold".

The spacer to carb was just fine----

Anyway---found a gasket wide enough to use with the stock manifold and spacer---I can actually see it all around the spacer now.

Wish I had noticed this the first time---put a gasket down, spacer, another gasket and then the carb----did not even bother to look.:rolleyes:

Saturday, before putting the Holley back on, The car moved for the first time under it's own power.
Drove it onto a dolly and took it for exhaust-----lot quieter now vs absolutely nothing except for a couple of feet of exhaust pipe ending at the toeboard.

Put the Holley back on Monday
Changed the oil/filter

reach into the car and hit the key
let it spin til fuel arrives.

it hit and idled all on its own and I did not even get in the car (just reached thru the windshield opening)

I'm better now
 
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