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Old 06-03-2005, 12:36 AM
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Carreer questions about Auto-Body / Paint

Hey everyone

I didn't know where to put this post. I figured more people would be able to see it who work in the auto-body and paint field.

Im trying to figure out if this painting thing is what I want to stick with career wise. So far its what I like and what iv been doing for about 4 years now and im good at it.


I hear allot of stories about how painters make good money but I haven't heard much about body-men getting payed much.

Even though I like doing painting and body-work. Im basically just wondering if there is enough money there to raise a family and stuff like that without raising a family in poverty and stuff like that.

So far iv been told that the college classes out here are bad though and iv read the only real way to learn more about body-work is to be a helper in a auto-body shop.

Any tips and stuff would be appreciated

Thanks,
Chris
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Old 06-03-2005, 04:42 AM
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I very bias with this subject, but my feeling is there is no better opportunity to either starve yourself to death or end up a millionaire than working as a painter or bodyman. (Its all your choice!)

Perhaps the best part of this business is it does not discriminate between college degree and a high school dropout. It comes down to who wants to work, learn and most important plan your work and work your plan.

If this is the business you want, since you have a basic application skill forget the Tech school get a job as a helper and start learning.

My number one pet peeve:
If someone says to you I have been doing this for x # of years, magic number seems to be 20 or 30 years and he knows it all, pay no attention to what he says or try to learn by working with him, just run as fast as you can!

You never know it all in this business! It changes everyday and when you get a guy that the first thing out of his mouth is I have been doing this for 30 years, you know he has not learned anything in the last 10 years because
he won't listen as he knows it all.
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Old 06-03-2005, 05:52 AM
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Your best bet would be to find a job as an apprentice and work for awhile to see if this is really what you want to do. There are some good schools to attend if you want to go that route. I graduated from Ferris State, having a degree sure can help get you in the door of some of the better shops. Hands on experience is still number one but the schools do provide a lot of technical training that does help to keep you from repairing a car wrong and killing the customer. A college degree can also help if you later want to move into management or the insurance side of the industry. As far as earnings go- IMO the only people in this business that do really good are the owners of successful shops. Experienced technicians earn an average wage in this area- nobody is getting rich. If you can try to work on commision, 40-45% is what the better shops are paying here. Countrywide there is a shortage of technicians right now and if the trend continues there may be a possiblity that wages will go up as demand increases- I sure hope so. Good Luck
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Old 06-03-2005, 06:31 AM
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I think that body work and paint is what I want to do for a career once I graduate, I've always loved to work on cars and stuff. When I tkae a car that is half wrecked, fix it, and paint it so that it looks new again its a really cool feeling when I see what it looks like fixed compared to being all smashed up.
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Old 06-03-2005, 07:09 AM
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Chris, I have been a Automotive Technician (mechanical side not body or paint) for going on 18+ years. I still don't know half of the stuff out there. So I certainly agree with Barry K, the more you say you know the less you really do. I started work out of high school and have never looked back. I have made a lot of $$ in the industry, it all depends on you if you work on a flat rate pay scale, and want to work. Know I have moved into owning my own shop (I have for the last 7 years) and what badbob said about the only one making money is a owner, far from being the truth. Yes I do OK, but not many people knows what it takes to keep the door's open on a successful auto repair business, body or mechanical end of it. I am glad to see anybody taking an interest in this industry, YES there is a SHORTAGE of good qualified techs in this industry. So if you take classes on it or not, you will always be in demand (if your good) and should make Good $$ if you do a good job. And yes continuing education is a MUST even after you have seen it all, the industry is always changing, the older I get the dumber I feel.(may be because I have came to the conclusion that I don't know it all) So I say jump in with both feet and have fun, you must enjoy your work to do well at it.
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Old 06-03-2005, 09:42 AM
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As far as wages, this is no different than any other industry.
There are painters making big money and painter making a good living and of course some not doing real good.

I guess the biggest thing in the bodyshop business is the area you live and the shop you work for. You work for a shop that does used car work for dealerships your not going to be driving a new Mercedes for sure.
A good dealership or nice size independent shop that does high quality insurance work you will make a very good living but you will be efficient and good or you won't stay there long.

I know a number of painters who are in situations where they hire their own helpers and they make some real money. One works for a Honda dealer and has four working for him and all he does is spray and tint.
Thats a rare job situation but this guy can compare income with most lawyers and win.

The other opportunities that open up range from owning a shop, being a paint rep, insurance adjuster or shop manager. Some painters go on to open their own paint store. So the career can be used as a long term career or a training ground for other avenues.
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Old 06-03-2005, 12:08 PM
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In new jersey there are so many body shops in one area finding one that pays well is often hard to come by. i have been in a position where i would get commission off of jobs.. one guy was a know it all body man like barry pointed out. i rented his booth one day before i had decent painting facilities and all he did was breath down my neck all day and it wasnt even his job. so i spray the car after he was in denial that i actually could(was only 17 at the time but painted prolly 15 cars at that time).. so anyway i get done and im cleaning my guns and he comes over and offers me a job. he tells me he will make a deal if i wanted to work for him. 50% of the estimate if i can get the car in and out from taking it apart to bodywork to prep to paint to buff and done. i told him i would think about it for a few days and i decided that yeah the money would be good but knowing myself i wouldnt last longer then a week there. what i have noticed knowing many shop owners is if u are young they will act all high and mighty. and also learned that most owners have sat behind the desk for so long that they dont know jack about new methods and products. Now, i will go on to a job that wasnt all to bad. One day im looking through the paper come across a help wanted ad at a body shop the ad says 55k-70k a year for body guys 75k-95k a year for painters. so i call up and it turns out to be a very large auto auction in the area. so to make a long story short i go for an interview doesnt seem all that bad to work there. i get the job doing body work since i was 19 and it was less hours a day. got paid flat rate and sure enough my first two weeks i made nothing less then $200 a day and most days were in the $250 range. and since the shop was soo huge u didnt see the manager unless u wanted to. you did your own thing all day long and the money was great and i only worked 8 hours a day mon-friday. so it was good for a bit. then they hire a second manager. he admits this is the first time he was in a body shop except for getting his personal cars fixed... well that was fine until day after day he was breathing down my neck and telling me how to do a job that he knows nothing about. needless to say i think 5 of us quit that same week. so now all i do is side work it seems to be going really well.. in fact ive been doing sidework since the middle of highschool and now i actually have one employee and im really busy for not having a sign out from or an ad in the yellow pages or news paper. its all word of mouth and i push about 4 cars a week out not counting custom work(which is a majority of my business) that takes more time etc. can i buy a house right now? no i cant because im young and i decided i wanted three cars and to still live with mommy and daddy. if i got rid of two of my cars then yes i could. my goal is not to do sidework forever and it is also not to work for another bodyshop other then my own. im in the process of saving extra money and when i find the right shop with the help of the bank i will have my own shop and if all goes well it will work out. so ill get to my point.. sometimes working for people although the money might be decent its usually a PITA if you are young. but not many people have a backyard shop like i do and not many people can just buy a shop whenever they want. so u gotta make money somehow. working for a shop you wont ever be rich, but owning one u certainly can. a shop near me the owner has a ferarri 355, brand new dodge magnum hemi, brand new hummer and a few hot rods. something to think about i guess.
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Old 06-03-2005, 01:10 PM
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beemdubya,

You will succeed!
Reading your post right away reminded me of a Bodyman I meant in Texas last week.

48 years old and a heck of a bodyman had been working for shops all his life and the one owner gave the shop to his son who knew nothing.
We all have seen that before!
So after 11 years he quit.

He said I'm not educated so I figured I could run a shop as good as anyone but I needed to learn finances. The next quarter took every finance and accounting courses he could.

When he got done opened his shop and has all but run the competition out of business in town. All in about two years.

He invited me to dinner Thursday night and I got to tell you the house on the lake is beautiful and expensive.

He said his only regret is he did not do this ten years earlier.

Watch, learn and take in all you can and most important learn from other peoples mistakes!
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Old 06-03-2005, 01:27 PM
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All that has been said is right on, you have some VERY experianced professionals in the business giving you some very good advice.

The question about raising a family is what I want to respond to, just good old, "can I make a living"? Of course every area is going to be different. In some mid western state small town you may have a hard time, HOWEVER, the way I look at it is SOMEONE is making a living doing it there so it could be you. Well here in the San Fran Bay area there are hundreds upon hundreds of shops. There are over a hundred in my market alone! But there are also millions of cars, it all works out.
In my almost 30 years in the business, I have worked in a few different shops doing body, paint, I have been a paint rep for a paint company, owned my own shop for a number of years, and now I am starting my next step is production manager in a very large shop with 26 employees. In all those years I made a living, a decent living. My wife is a stay at home mom we have a nice home and nice cars and no bills. I have raised four kids and we do a lot of what we would want to, vacations, shows, concerts, San Fran city outings, etc.

To answer your question, yes you can make a good living. One thing touched on was the shortage of techs, in this area, you betcha. I could leave here today and have a job by sun down.

Brian
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Old 06-03-2005, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beemdubya
my goal is not to do sidework forever and it is also not to work for another bodyshop other then my own. im in the process of saving extra money and when i find the right shop with the help of the bank i will have my own shop and if all goes well it will work out. so ill get to my point.. sometimes working for people although the money might be decent its usually a PITA if you are young. but not many people have a backyard shop like i do and not many people can just buy a shop whenever they want. so u gotta make money somehow. working for a shop you wont ever be rich, but owning one u certainly can. a shop near me the owner has a ferarri 355, brand new dodge magnum hemi, brand new hummer and a few hot rods. something to think about i guess.
Don't take what I am about to say the wrong way, I admire you ambitions in wanting you own shop.

You say the only way to make a lot of $$$ is to own! It all sounds good until you start your own shop. Don't get me wrong I make a fair amount of $$ but it comes with a price. When you are working for someone other that your self the only hurdle at the time is the car your working on, all you need to do is complete the car in a timely manor and do a (I would say a good job, but thats not enough) GREAT job. Now be the owner and add about 20 more steps to that 1 job. Don't over book, so you can get the job out and done quickly, call and price out job, write estimate, make sure there is enough markup to actually make some $$, make sure the guy that is doing the job is certified and capable of doing job, call customer and sell job, get beat up by customer because the price is to high or his/her car is not worth that much $$ so why put that much $$ into it, finally sold job to customer, call order parts, wait for parts to show, call customer back tell them that it will be 1 extra day for parts to show up, parts show up and they are wrong, call customer back tell them now it will be 2 days for the correct parts, this is another discussion if the customer can wait this long, OK now the parts are here and they are what you need, but the parts that you wrote the estimate with was the earlier parts that was wrong, so know the new parts just cost you 15% more, so your profit went down by 15%, (yes you can call customer back, BUT he/she just about bailed out of the repair with the last call and you weren't even asking for more $$) so you decide to eat the 15%, now the tech is performing the repairs, all is going well, car is done and every thing looks great. Call customer to pick car up, customer is just leaving for 3 week trip to ??, is it OK that they leave it at your place for the 3 weeks, then they will be in to pick up and pay.Your tech wants to be paid for the job he/she finished for you, (know you are out the cost of parts cost of tech labor) now you need to pull car in and out every day so nothing will happen to the finished car. customer comes in and pays says everything looks great and is very happy. pays with a credit card so know you just lost more $$ credit card company will take there share of $$. 2 days go by and customer calls back and states that his/her transmission is gone bad, and of course they think you did it while it was at your shop. You ask the tech, and of course he knows nothing about it. You know that when you test drove the car it was fine, any attempt to convince the customer of this just sounds as if your trying to hide something. So now what do you do, at this point you are in your office in the corner sobbing like a baby.

That was the worse case scenario. but I have had similar problems, and this is not even the $$ side of running a shop.

How much is a good tech cost you per hour$ $20-$30 per flat rate hour or more. then to keep the good techs you need to offer 401k program health ins. vacation package, continuing education, uniforms ect... all at you expense. now add in all the taxes, payroll tax, sales tax, Medi-care,Medi- cade. Don't forget the building rent/mortgage, workers comp ins, garage keepers ins. (don't want customer top slip and fall and own your shop and your house and every thing els they can take from you) add in all the utilities and other small stuff and you can see why I say its not that great to be a shop owner.
With all that said I wouldn't change anything about owning my shop, its a great feeling when the (good day) day is done and the shop is empty(but the parking lot is full of broken cars), when you can stand out in the middle of it and think all this is mine and I am proud.
So with that said I say GOOD LUCK TO YOU and I hope this didn't discourage you because THIS IS GREAT.

As far as the Ferrari 355, brand new dodge magnum Hemi, brand new hummer and a few hot rods. A poor man with good credit can have these also. (maybe not as long as someone that can pay the bills).

Steve
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Old 06-03-2005, 04:46 PM
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Owning your own shop means it owns you as much as you own it...PERIOD! If you don't feel or believe this way just forget it. You need 24-7 dedication and attn to doing GOOD BUISNESS. I answered to only the azzhole over the top of my bathroom sink for 23yrs. Finally it got too hard and too expensive to keep it going. Did several startegies to survive but in the end the best move was to stop. I had banner years for a small restoration shop. Supported 5 families and generally did just fine. In the end I went from Nov. to April with ZERO income to try to keep it alive. This was in 95 when tech stocks were making everyday people overnight millionaires. Not many were willing to throw down 200K on a Packard or Duesenberg. At 1 time there were several known shops in my area and now there's very few.

One of my strategies was to build drag cars. Got covered up with work for about a year but it wasn't enough for everyone and I was the only one with enough background to do and sell the work properly. I reduced to just 1 man...ME. That was fine for a while but very hard to keep it all happening.

Now I took a position with a major prototype co. and do just fine. I do all the same techniques that are required for what this part of the board is, just different.

So how do I measure the success? Easy. I still own every piece of equipment, in closing the shop down I was able to move to the country and build a barn as big as the last shop, I still have people seeking me out, I still basically like what I do, when I closed the shop I OWED NOTHING TO NO ONE. All I owed was to myself to live well and be somewhat happy. I gave myself a raise in the form of a $350.00 a month reduction in my healthcare costs due to their benefit pkg. I spend less per month on my home/pole barn than when I made less dough keeping a shop and home going.

If you're young, like the buisness, and really want to do it, then like all the others said start doing it. A painter in a Ford dlr I knew of made almost $90K in 1 yr. His helper made over $50K. Not bad depending on where and how you live. I will advise you that you need to FOCUS ON PERSONAL SAFETY!!! You only get 2 lungs, 2 kidneys (most of us), and 1 liver. This schit they concoct today can flat out KILL you without notice. If you want it just go get it.
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Old 06-03-2005, 06:25 PM
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carreer questions about autobody / paint

Basically you will get out of It what you are willing to put into it yep you have to remain flexible while being firm like water
water can be almost any thing a gas a solid a liquid a gentle shower or a devastating flood or hail .its true that most successful people cut out a place for themselves by owning their own business and here is a choice do you want to gamble or conserve do you want to be complex or simple ?
owning is a gamble to me calculated but never the less but so is a dealership you would theoretically make a career out of it.
now the next part i would look @ is the type of business
broke down there is 2 types
needs
wants
Needs: is a grocery ,gas station,clothes people need this to be civilized

Wants :24"rims and tires, pleasure boats jewelry you cant feed the children tires and rims for dinner
'needs" people don't have a lot of money
"wants" people for the most part do

next part to look is the supply demand and competition for your area (im not sure where) but job services do studies on these things the who what where why how much and projections and availability for a area
.
if your skills and desires are for the area you seek and most of all

IF IT MAKES YOU HAPPY THEN YOU GOT THEM BY THE....S

when its all said and done are you gonna have fun??
most people forget that part
one part that is important too is to take care of your heath that is the best commodity you will ever posses
also take in to account that the auto service industry gets a bad rap because of a few.

go w/ the flow and good luck

rob
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Old 06-03-2005, 10:36 PM
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I just have 1 question.

Do you eat,sleep,dream paint & body work?

When you do what you love the most,It's all gravy.

Business is business and the up's & downs that go with it are part of the game. It's up to you to decide if you want to play.
As my dad told me.
Son,You got yourself in your hand,What you gonna do with you?
Translation:What are YOU going to do with YOU.
You have some REALLY GOOD advice so far from some good people who have given you about every aspect of this business to consider.
I have a career,30 years worth and make a good living.No I can't go out and by a Hummer but I live comfortably. My own fault. I don't want the responsibility or headache of my own company which everyone tell's me I'm crazy for not doing. I KNOW what it takes to run a business as I was a general manager and HATED EVERYDAY of it. I work for a small company now and go home everyday at 4:30,kiss my wife,get a glass of tea and go to my shop where I do whatever I want to. I do paint because I WANT to and it's FUN for me. I pick and choose my job's and make my disposable income doing this. If I quit tomorrow,my livelihood dosen't depend on this,my rod money does,but not my home.
Now, I have a friend who is 10 years younger than I that I help train as a young kid out of high school. He started his own company and does VERY WELL but he work's his *** off. He has the $$ to race and will be buying a new Vette next year along with building a new house, ect.
I'm a little jealous but I don't drink antacid's and have all my hair.

Like Rob said, Need's & Want's

I Need's to go get something cold to drink,and,I Want's something to eat.

Mike.
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Old 06-03-2005, 10:58 PM
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being diversified is a must one other thing i forgot it
you have to be able to live separate lives to a point .
one thing i hated and still do is that little nagging voice saying "did you miss anything on old ms smiths caddy to make her break down in a bad part of town"!! ugh those will haunt you if you cant separate them. i did not do a good job @ that
so i went to the bone yards i got to play with my toys(my wifes term...until she need something fixed) take crap apart tag it, shelf it ...next no worries for me that way there alot to learn but dont get in a hurry, if you learn it good the 1st time the speed and confidence will come naturally

un related question what is IMO that i see being use on the threads???? its driving me nutzzzzer IMO...IMO???

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Old 06-04-2005, 12:07 AM
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Thanks for the input everyone

Yall helped out allot.
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