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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2013, 10:33 PM
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These EFI's have been on the market long enough that used ones are available.Just got to be careful not to buy one where it isn't supported by manufacture any-longer.

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Old 04-02-2013, 04:27 AM
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As an old guy, Ex corvette shop owner in Cal, FI were way cool on the vetts (TPI C4s) I really like my C4, I still have it. 235 HP and monster torque up to 4800 rpm. The TBI trucks (and cars) were a joke. The injectors sprayed through a 2 BBL intake. They ran good and throttle responce and start up was amazing, but real HP was lacking (as i remember the trucks i bought in the late 80s early 90s all had peanut port heads) Rated at 250 HP on a 454 is a shame.
I had a 66 396 super sport 4 speed with oval port closed camber heads with a carb, it was faster.

I now have a 93 Harley that i built useing buell parts.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2013, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
nice carb=$650.บบ
F.I.=$1200.บบ
?
It's not always about the money. I've had both and would much prefer FI over a carb.

Russ
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2013, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
nice carb=$650.บบ
F.I.=$1200.บบ
?
1200.00 where and how

even with a megasquirt
MSII 350.oo
harness 90.oo
relay board 80.oo
laptop we'll call this free as most have
cable for ecu to laptop 89.oo
serial to ubs adapter 20.oo
injectors new 600-900 used 100.oo -200.00
throttlebody with tps if you plan on a carb intake reworked this t/b will be 400-600.oo
drill intake for injectors and buy the bungs, 150-200.00
fuel rails 40-80.oo plus fittings and regulator 100.00
return line if not equip.. 25.00 line/ 10.oo fittings/clamps 5.00
fuel pump 100-500.00
fuel filter 50-150
sendors coolant use 5-15/
o2 senders(2 if v8) new they are 50-180 EACH
I'llstop there, and leave the ign side for later..

where are you getting 1200.oo
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:57 PM
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One law away from banning all carbs on the street.Then no choices.The performance results are very clear in the new model cars/trucks.The idea that we have such a hard time spending on EFI's,but not on anything else.Certainly tailor power curves the EFI's have a clear advantage.The aftermarket has been building these EFI's for a very long time now,so a used system is out there to be tapped into that is still useable and not outdated.FAST started out as a build-yer-own and still offers that.I have always felt their stuff was a nickle/dime you to death approach.Am I going to rush out and buy a Pro-flow Edelbrock and spend close to 5 grand??. Nope.But in the same hand I might find one at a good price used.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2013, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
One law away from banning all carbs on the street.Then no choices.The performance results are very clear in the new model cars/trucks.The idea that we have such a hard time spending on EFI's,but not on anything else.Certainly tailor power curves the EFI's have a clear advantage.The aftermarket has been building these EFI's for a very long time now,so a used system is out there to be tapped into that is still useable and not outdated.FAST started out as a build-yer-own and still offers that.I have always felt their stuff was a nickle/dime you to death approach.Am I going to rush out and buy a Pro-flow Edelbrock and spend close to 5 grand??. Nope.But in the same hand I might find one at a good price used.

reason we have a hard time spending the cash for efi.. is most have a carb or two already.. rebuild kits are cheap.
and they work..
most hobby cars don't go but 2-5 thousand miles a year.. and anyone thats tried to start a efi engine after sitting, knows time sitting not used is not kind to these systems, as every one I've done has needed a nice jolt to get some of the injectors to open after sitting..
and the systems are costly.. and there is no reason for it..
when a t/b cost more than a carb and it's nothing but a chunk of alum and some blades in a shaft.. come on man.. the ecu is what a 1995 laptop was as far as tech.. o2 senders are mass produced but cost $$..
old cars have electrical noise that plays hell with the ecu.. and is a nightmare to hunt down..
carb fix on side of road,, efi call AAA for a tow..
efi is great when it works, and a r.p.i.t.a. when it doesn't..
I had a projection set up.. that sucked every year unstick the injectors,,
the simple fact is the buy in for efi is still to high..
cause frankly after working at a dealership I'd not throw a system together with used parts, like a MSII and all junkyard parts..

a t/b to feed my 489 is over 600 or a kit for 1800+ pump/lines/injectors,
lets see even if I didn't have 4 carbs on a shelf..
3000.oo or a swap meet carb 75-150 and a 25.oo rebuild kit, a few jets and a float.. or a new 850 for 500.00
500.oo or 3k+ 2500 more for a vehicle that I'll not need cold start drivability.. that oil changes will be 2000k no matter if it needs it or not..
if you can afford efi great,
my 800cfm q-jet 75.oo and rebuild kit 24.oo/float 7.00 will do the same job and give up little.. leaving me money to put into a roller cam that will do more for power than the efi ever could
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2013, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
One law away from banning all carbs on the street.Then no choices..
have they outlawed points?
or mechanical timing?
carbs will never be banned..

and there isn't a efi system on the market ready for e15..
so buy a efi system for 3k and it'll need to be updated injectors at least, or a complete replacement of injectors/lines/pump/filter/regulator..
oh let me waste more money
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2013, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
1200.00 where and how

even with a megasquirt
MSII 350.oo
harness 90.oo
relay board 80.oo
laptop we'll call this free as most have
cable for ecu to laptop 89.oo - $7.00
serial to ubs adapter 20.oo - not needed if using a serial port
injectors new 600-900 used 100.oo -200.00 - rebuilt for less than $200 from local reputable dealer - not ebay
throttlebody with tps if you plan on a carb intake reworked this t/b will be 400-600.oo - used TPI complete less than $300
drill intake for injectors and buy the bungs, 150-200.00 - not needed
fuel rails 40-80.oo plus fittings and regulator 100.00 - not needed
return line if not equip.. 25.00 line/ 10.oo fittings/clamps 5.00
fuel pump 100-500.00 - stock in tank pump - $43.00
fuel filter 50-150 - stock fuel filter - $12.00
sendors coolant use 5-15/ - free (come with intake)
o2 senders(2 if v8) new they are 50-180 EACH - 1 needed wideband Innovate LC1 - $145
I'llstop there, and leave the ign side for later.. - junkyard GM 8 pin, new cap rotor & wires - less than $100

where are you getting 1200.oo
I just did this with an MS2 (I've mentioned it in several other threads.) It's been a learning experience, fun and very results oriented. I put a next to your prices listed to show what I paid for these parts. I do agree that $1500 is a safe number if going with a TPI. For TBI it is less as these manifolds and throttle bodies are a dime a dozen.

In terms of tunabilty, we had the car running and tuned for idle and burnouts in less than an hour. I changed the fuel pressure and retuned in 5 minutes. Regarding idle quality and starting - no comparison. It does both better than it ever did with a Holley - more vacuum and smoother.

For the parts of the install that some might not like : I made my own harness from junkyard parts (bought a couple new connectors) and about $80 worth of wire and solder (every joint soldered - no butt connectors.) The learning curve with MegaSquirt is large if you've never done it before. I spent at least 60 hours of reading and taking notes from the MS MegaManual (but I personally like learning new things - I veiwed it positively.) For a guy who wants a turn key car, engine, transmission - MegaSquirt and EFI are not for that guy.

Regarding the MS learning curve, after doing it once, the next one will be a snap, especially if I use GM sensors and the same or similar ignition. It's very simialr to doing your taxes correctly - the task seems almost overwhelming until your read the tax instructions. And after completing your taxes you feel confident in doing them again.

I viewed the expense as similar to a carb as the amount of gas that we'll save. I have no real data on that yet as we haven't driven the car on the road - thanks to upstate NY weather - but soon. We expect the mileage to increase from 9 to at least 13-14, hopefully 18-20 - the proof will be in the pudding.

My two cents - for what it's worth.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2013, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
I just did this with an MS2 (I've mentioned it in several other threads.) It's been a learning experience, fun and very results oriented. I put a next to your prices listed to show what I paid for these parts. I do agree that $1500 is a safe number if going with a TPI. For TBI it is less as these manifolds and throttle bodies are a dime a dozen.

In terms of tunabilty, we had the car running and tuned for idle and burnouts in less than an hour. I changed the fuel pressure and retuned in 5 minutes. Regarding idle quality and starting - no comparison. It does both better than it ever did with a Holley - more vacuum and smoother.

For the parts of the install that some might not like : I made my own harness from junkyard parts (bought a couple new connectors) and about $80 worth of wire and solder (every joint soldered - no butt connectors.) The learning curve with MegaSquirt is large if you've never done it before. I spent at least 60 hours of reading and taking notes from the MS MegaManual (but I personally like learning new things - I veiwed it positively.) For a guy who wants a turn key car, engine, transmission - MegaSquirt and EFI are not for that guy.

Regarding the MS learning curve, after doing it once, the next one will be a snap, especially if I use GM sensors and the same or similar ignition. It's very simialr to doing your taxes correctly - the task seems almost overwhelming until your read the tax instructions. And after completing your taxes you feel confident in doing them again.

I viewed the expense as similar to a carb as the amount of gas that we'll save. I have no real data on that yet as we haven't driven the car on the road - thanks to upstate NY weather - but soon. We expect the mileage to increase from 9 to at least 13-14, hopefully 18-20 - the proof will be in the pudding.

My two cents - for what it's worth.
you came to 1500.00 with a tpi system..
you list a stock intank pump.. so I'm guessing you're using a efi tank..
was that free??? the wideband lc1 doesn't come the a o2 sendor.. at least they didn't when I looked at them.. arnt they disco'd so it's buy used now??
a 7-10 psi fuel filter is a fire waiting to happen at 43-60 psi the efi runs at.. hope you used a filter made to handle that psi..

you came in at 1500.oo using a factory system.. thats nice..
my two engines.. the 355 with brodix heads the gm tpi intake will not cover the ports.. and the tpi is all done at 4500-5000rpm and thats fine.. but not with heads set up to sing to 7000+
the other one is a 454 based stroker..(489) only factory intake(efi) is the late model (496) truck if you can find one. and then iirc that engine was a tall deck block.. no idea how you'd make that work on a pass bbc block, thinking that be a no go.. to have my dart intake drilled and bungs welded in.. 250.00 fuel rails drilled 80-100 , the T/B to mount on intake big enough to feed 489 cid more money than a 850d/p ..
now lets move to injectors,, I could get the truck 496 intake set up like you did with the tpi for 300-500 and then use the injectors and maybe the fuel rails and injector harness.. and then toss the rest.. and after testing and rebuilding the injectors, I'll be at new injectors and rails cost..
I've read the mega manual 6 times,, but reading and doing are to different things..
not knocking EFI , I'm knocking the cost.. you'd think that carb based t/b to use on a carb intake would be less money than they are..
I'm kinda shocked that eldlbrook doesn't have carb intakes already drilled with injector bungs ready to go..
I'm all for learning.. but I have to watch every dime.. like most people today..
untill the efi systems are about the same cost as a carb set up..

If the bbc doesn't go into the truck and I get a vortec 350 I'll be very tempted to get the intake and all the other parts of a vortec truck/van and MSII it..
and ya, I'd not use a crimp connector anywhere near a engine management system..

if you haven't guessed, I spent a lot of time doing my homework on this.. for both engine and a vortec 350 if I go that way..
my real world cost are just under 1700 if I slapped a tpi on the engine in the truck now.. if vortec 350 add 340.oo for a tpi vortec lower intake..
and thats finding a efi van fuel tank and making that fit the truck.. if custom tank add another 400+
the bbc cost got silly.. at about 3000.oo if I didn't have a non efi tank, the carb and all it's gear.. then the cost wouldn't be as bad but still double having to buy it all..
and I have yet to figure out how having 3 injectors firing at closed intake valves doesn't puddle fuel (bank fire v8, )

Last edited by gearheadslife; 04-03-2013 at 08:26 AM.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2013, 08:36 AM
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conclusion
we all agree that F.I. costs more than a carb.
We all agree that F.I. has a lot to offer.

some of us have very good running engines
some of us have excellent running engines
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2013, 08:17 PM
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I wantto build a blower motor sometime in the future. I'd love to use efi, but as was stated, lots of money. If I went with efi, I could use the hat and that would make a whole lot nicer set up. I've drag raced for a bunch of yrs and used mech inj on alky for most of them. I have a street chevelle now with a Quick Fuel 850 on a 434. It's 1 nice carb but it's not injection. Carbs can be a pain, but unless you have alot of extra cash your stuck with them. If I could swing it, it'd be efi all the way.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:25 PM
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[QUOTE=gearheadslife;1662763]you came to 1500.00 with a tpi system..
you list a stock intank pump.. so I'm guessing you're using a efi tank..
was that free??? the wideband lc1 doesn't come the a o2 sendor.. at least they didn't when I looked at them.. arnt they disco'd so it's buy used now??
a 7-10 psi fuel filter is a fire waiting to happen at 43-60 psi the efi runs at.. hope you used a filter made to handle that psi..

you came in at 1500.oo using a factory system.. thats nice..
my two engines.. the 355 with brodix heads the gm tpi intake will not cover the ports.. and the tpi is all done at 4500-5000rpm and thats fine.. but not with heads set up to sing to 7000+
QUOTE]

The stock fuel tank is what we are using, and no it wasn't free - we paid $350 for the car with the tank. The LC1 was as quoted for new with a guage. The fuel filter is the stock EFI filter designed for the TPI chassis that the setup was pulled from.
In terms of RPM's, as mentioned, we haven't had it to the dyno yet, but we will, but for the only trip we taken it on (a 1 mile test drive) I can safely say that the notion that a TPI runs out of air at high 4000's is untrue. I set the rev limiter to 5500 to be safe and we hit twice. The second time I took note, the car went from 3500 to 5500 in less than 2 seconds and it wasn't lacking any air. It would have kept going if it hadn't hit the rev limiter. I will say, though, the heads have been treated properly, the shorty headers run into 2 1/2 duals that exist under the seats. Maybe with stock manifolds, y-pipe, cat, and sound deadening muffler high 4's is the limit, but I have no experience with that.

FYI, just like alot of guys on this forum, I did my research as well. I didn't build it to hope it would work.




Vinnie,

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2013, 12:39 AM
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Even IF EFI's limited output on the top end,so what.The SFI's are known for a solid bottom and a fat middle.It has been a long,long,struggle as a engine builder to convince customers that torque is what really matters on street driven vehicles.After all these yrs of a hard sell that HP is the goal.To convert you guys has certainly been a kick in my butt.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2013, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
Even IF EFI's limited output on the top end,so what.The SFI's are known for a solid bottom and a fat middle.It has been a long,long,struggle as a engine builder to convince customers that torque is what really matters on street driven vehicles.After all these yrs of a hard sell that HP is the goal.To convert you guys has certainly been a kick in my butt.

SFI makes batch/bank fire efi look cheap..

as far as the ft lb vs hp it's been said for years not anything new..
but hp sells..
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:23 PM
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Yup

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
If you make serious power and want excellent control of tuning,want to drive in mountainous regions,want to race and not tune at the track,have the ability to have a "valet" tune,want easier starting and cold drive ability then E.F.I. has many advantages that may well be worth considering.
same thing with using crank fired ignition and not worrying about cam chain stretch,distributor bearing wear,etc.
As better parts are introduced,using them is up to the individual,,
lol,some people still use points and dont use seat belts
I do still use points in 2 of my old classics,,so i dont thinks its funny..really "DUDE"..when i open my hood i see what i should have seen back in 67..thats how i rebuilt it..Nothin looks worse to me, than modified stuff on a classic car..but some guys like 26" wheels too yukk..or rippin out an interior and jammin in one from a newer car...oh and i do not wear my seatbelt...I personaly think if i want EFI and so on..i will just buy a car that has it.
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