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A Case To EFI

7K views 45 replies 13 participants last post by  gearheadslife 
#1 ·
#3 ·
Its hard to justify using a carb now a days


not really.. I have carb's the rebuild kits are cheap..
EFI might be wonderfull but most don't have 1500+ to blow on it..
yes I'd love to get a holley hp efi for my 489 but the funds are just not there..
I wish I could but 99.oo master holley 3301-3 rebuild kit . or 1800.00 for the holley mpf efi hp kit..+ injectors and pump /lines so 2400.oo ish
the megasquirt is an option but that be more for someone thats either got a buddy thats already into the efi tuning that can guide you some..
or try it on an engine you don't care if you blow a hole in a piston learning..
and truthfully some engines.. like the bbc . where junkyard intakes and injectors really are not aval..
the cost isn't that much cheaper than the holley set up..
once you factor in the ecu /fuel rails/injectors/pump/lines/wiring/relays or relay board, communation cable and ubs adapter..
IF I can find a TPI this spring in a junkyard I will tinker with efi on my worn out 305 in my truck and learn on it.. as that is a cheap way to go.. 300-500 for the tpi and then the harness and ms ecu and cable/pump /line
the suck part of that.. is the TPI won't work on my 355 with big port heads.. so it's learn then start over... carb you can bolt from one engine to another. change jets(cheap) maybe a shooter/ramps/power valve( under 50 bucks)
and go..
has anyone priced a set of 8 injectors lately??? poof bye 1000.oo+
 
#6 ·
quote
"as for mountains.. how the hell did we ever get by before efi??"
cars lost power before,ran rich,wore out quicker,,,
with F.I.,engines get better mileage,run cleaner,last longer.
I use a carb,,,I have 10k into the engine.
a carb is a controlled fuel leak

most tuners dont even spend time on the carbs,yet the cars still run

most of the stock engines from the manufacturers make more horse power than the hot rodders engines with their thumpr cams/avenger carbs/home ported heads and 2 1/2 inch exhaust systems
why??????????
 
#7 ·
quote
"as for mountains.. how the hell did we ever get by before efi??"
cars lost power before,ran rich,wore out quicker,,,
with F.I.,engines get better mileage,run cleaner,last longer.
I use a carb,,,I have 10k into the engine.
a carb is a controlled fuel leak

most tuners dont even spend time on the carbs,yet the cars still run

most of the stock engines from the manufacturers make more horse power than the hot rodders engines with their thumpr cams/avenger carbs/home ported heads and 2 1/2 inch exhaust systems
why??????????
roller cams, better intakes and heads , the ls engine lost nothing with a carb.. and distributor.. WHY?
 
#11 ·
My current project (LS motor in a '63 Rambler American) is getting a Holley HP EFI system. I have a carb'ed LS in my Maverick and hate it. Runs great, but runs so rich at idle it fouls plugs and after a few minutes you smell like a gas pump. And yes, it has to be that rich (13.4 AFR) to keep from stalling with the cam I have...

Russ
 
#13 ·
My title says 2450#, but I've seen weights listed as high as 2740#. Being a stripped out 220 2dr sedan, it's prolly on the low side somewhere. Not sure where it'll end up, the engine and trans are lighter, but adding a rear clip and 9" will add some back...

Russ
 
#14 ·
Efi

I would like to have EFI, however reality sets in. It's just way, way too expensive. I can buy 4 or 5 nice carbs for the price of one EFI system. I know the carb will work. For a vehicle that is a toy, EFI is also very complicated for the returns. At this point in time it's just not an rational alternative to the simplicity of a carb for limited use vehicle.
 
#17 ·
As an old guy, Ex corvette shop owner in Cal, FI were way cool on the vetts (TPI C4s) I really like my C4, I still have it. 235 HP and monster torque up to 4800 rpm. The TBI trucks (and cars) were a joke. The injectors sprayed through a 2 BBL intake. They ran good and throttle responce and start up was amazing, but real HP was lacking (as i remember the trucks i bought in the late 80s early 90s all had peanut port heads) Rated at 250 HP on a 454 is a shame.
I had a 66 396 super sport 4 speed with oval port closed camber heads with a carb, it was faster.

I now have a 93 Harley that i built useing buell parts.
 
#20 ·
One law away from banning all carbs on the street.Then no choices.The performance results are very clear in the new model cars/trucks.The idea that we have such a hard time spending on EFI's,but not on anything else.Certainly tailor power curves the EFI's have a clear advantage.The aftermarket has been building these EFI's for a very long time now,so a used system is out there to be tapped into that is still useable and not outdated.FAST started out as a build-yer-own and still offers that.I have always felt their stuff was a nickle/dime you to death approach.Am I going to rush out and buy a Pro-flow Edelbrock and spend close to 5 grand??. Nope.But in the same hand I might find one at a good price used.
 
#21 ·
reason we have a hard time spending the cash for efi.. is most have a carb or two already.. rebuild kits are cheap.
and they work..
most hobby cars don't go but 2-5 thousand miles a year.. and anyone thats tried to start a efi engine after sitting, knows time sitting not used is not kind to these systems, as every one I've done has needed a nice jolt to get some of the injectors to open after sitting..
and the systems are costly.. and there is no reason for it..
when a t/b cost more than a carb and it's nothing but a chunk of alum and some blades in a shaft.. come on man.. the ecu is what a 1995 laptop was as far as tech.. o2 senders are mass produced but cost $$..
old cars have electrical noise that plays hell with the ecu.. and is a nightmare to hunt down..
carb fix on side of road,, efi call AAA for a tow..
efi is great when it works, and a r.p.i.t.a. when it doesn't..
I had a projection set up.. that sucked every year unstick the injectors,,
the simple fact is the buy in for efi is still to high..
cause frankly after working at a dealership I'd not throw a system together with used parts, like a MSII and all junkyard parts..

a t/b to feed my 489 is over 600 or a kit for 1800+ pump/lines/injectors,
lets see even if I didn't have 4 carbs on a shelf..
3000.oo or a swap meet carb 75-150 and a 25.oo rebuild kit, a few jets and a float.. or a new 850 for 500.00
500.oo or 3k+ 2500 more for a vehicle that I'll not need cold start drivability.. that oil changes will be 2000k no matter if it needs it or not..
if you can afford efi great,
my 800cfm q-jet 75.oo and rebuild kit 24.oo/float 7.00 will do the same job and give up little.. leaving me money to put into a roller cam that will do more for power than the efi ever could
 
#26 ·
I wantto build a blower motor sometime in the future. I'd love to use efi, but as was stated, lots of money. If I went with efi, I could use the hat and that would make a whole lot nicer set up. I've drag raced for a bunch of yrs and used mech inj on alky for most of them. I have a street chevelle now with a Quick Fuel 850 on a 434. It's 1 nice carb but it's not injection. Carbs can be a pain, but unless you have alot of extra cash your stuck with them. If I could swing it, it'd be efi all the way.
 
#28 ·
Even IF EFI's limited output on the top end,so what.The SFI's are known for a solid bottom and a fat middle.It has been a long,long,struggle as a engine builder to convince customers that torque is what really matters on street driven vehicles.After all these yrs of a hard sell that HP is the goal.To convert you guys has certainly been a kick in my butt.
 
#32 ·
Here's my Blown EFI 355 in my T-bucket. I'm in the process of replacing it with a 406 DART block SBC using the blower and EFI, but switching to dual throttle bodies. The bugcatcher it a little touchy and in my opinion lets in too much air too fast for the street. The 355 made 400hp at the rear wheels with dual Edelbrock 600CFM carbs. With the EFI we got it too 490 with 5psi of boost and got better fuel mileage as well.

 
#34 ·
I forgot to mention I'm using an Accel DFI 7 ECU with a single O2 sensor in the passenger side header. All the sensors are GM except the TPS which is a Ford unit. The blower is underdriven for 5-8lbs of boost. The 8 injectors are completely hidden in the plate between the bugcatcher and blower.

Here's photo before the switch to EFI.




Here's a photo after the switch to EFI.



Here's a another angle of the engine.

 
#37 ·
GT23 - almost makes me wish for my 'bucket back. Very nicely done!!

Megasquirt = confusion IMHO, as far as pinning down information. I have several bookmarks on one 'puter and a couple on another just trying to nail down enough 'straight forward' description so I can even begin to wrap my head around it to begin a learning curve. Probably just need to buy a ream of paper and a new ink cartridge and start printing. I do like the new MSD offering for MY car though it is priced pretty high

The EFI naysayers are in some sense correct as far as using a carb for the highest potential for peak horsepower. For daily driving tractability, dead wrong. Cost effectiveness also goes away fairly quickly with 4 plus buck a gallon 93 octane gas, a choke system that sucks gas onto cylinder walls washing away the oil film, fixed jetting, usually for max output and little regard to the daily stop light grind. Then those swap meet carbs - a good part number doesn't always mean a good carb when you factor in worn or bent shafts, incorrect inner pieces that don't work right or even cracked castings.
 
#38 ·
Megasquirt = confusion IMHO, as far as pinning down information. I have several bookmarks on one 'puter and a couple on another just trying to nail down enough 'straight forward' description so I can even begin to wrap my head around it to begin a learning curve. Probably just need to buy a ream of paper and a new ink cartridge and start printing. I do like the new MSD offering for MY car though it is priced pretty high

The EFI naysayers are in some sense correct as far as using a carb for the highest potential for peak horsepower. For daily driving tractability, dead wrong. Cost effectiveness also goes away fairly quickly with 4 plus buck a gallon 93 octane gas, a choke system that sucks gas onto cylinder walls washing away the oil film, fixed jetting, usually for max output and little regard to the daily stop light grind. Then those swap meet carbs - a good part number doesn't always mean a good carb when you factor in worn or bent shafts, incorrect inner pieces that don't work right or even cracked castings.
I agree completely on the Megasquirt confusion. As I've said earlier, I am a Megasquirt beginner and so far, I love it. But confusion, you bet! I mentioned that to the the guys at diyautotune and they explained. Basically, they maintain most all of the old online info due to the amount of people that have and/or purchase used older units that need to be modified for a new/different setup.

But, what you need to do is contact them (Jeff) with what you have bought, either new or used, and let them know what you are intending to do with it and they will let you know what manuals to reference. And definitely don't be scared to read and take notes. Everytime I've sent an email to Jeff at diyautotune he has responded within 1 business day and usually he responds on weekends as well. Also, they have yet to treat any of my questions or me as petty or stupid (even though some of them could've easily been looked at that way) - those guys are great.

Obviously, from reading through this thread, there are two schools of thought on this forum regarding carb vs. EFI. To each his own. Be happy with what you have, otherwise, do something different, BUT BE HAPPY.:D


X2 on the 'swap meet' carbs. 'Came off a running engine' is what I usually here and as far as I'm concerend that doesn't mean much of anything. They were all new at some point, but not at the 'swap meet'.



GT23 - yikes! That is one nice looking ride. By the way, how well does it ride and handle? Would you consider taking it on a 50-100 mile trek?
 
#39 ·
GT23 - yikes! That is one nice looking ride. By the way, how well does it ride and handle? Would you consider taking it on a 50-100 mile trek?
I have driven it on a few 50+ mile cruises around the DFW area.

But after 12 years of driving it around DFW, I've decided to tear it down to the frame and start over. A friend of mine gave me a '74 XJ6 Jag rearend so I'm gonna get that installed along with the new engine. While I'm at, I'm gonna fix the things I wish I'd have done differently. You know Hot Rods are never finished. LOL
 
#40 ·
I'm not after 100% nuts-out pure horsepressure, nor do I want or need a zillion RPM. I do love the looks of a chrome / polished carb on a polished intake. i hate the look of a million wires going all around stuff, doing who knows what (transmitting to the UFOs from the Delta Quadrant?)

I took the HEI off my engine and installed a points-type system - i understand how points systems work - but HEI is a mystery. If I have an issue with the points I can fix it with a nail file and a matchbook, in the dark. When my old (since wrecked) 78 Chev P/u died one day, I could NOT find the issue. Just no spark. A huge repair bill later, it seems it was the module. (What the heck is a module?)

With a carb, if I want to change the performance curve, I can put in different size jets. (oops went the wrong way - better go to bigger/smaller ones)

With EFI - well - I don't even understand the terminology never mind being able to apply it!

Seems to me that CARS that we CARE about have carbs.
The nameless, soulless "transportation appliance" that goes back & forth to work and is disposed of when it stops working is 100% electronic
 
#41 ·
Forgot to mention - the engine that I went back to a points dist with - a 2.8 V6 out of an 87 Camaro, now installed in my "Henway" - a '65 P1800S.

Pulled engine, left all that mess of wires etc (just cut the wires when pulling the engine) and got an Edelbrock intake for it. Added a 360 CFM Holley and an electric fuel pump with pressure limiter

I'm using a Mallory Dual-points dist

Runs well, cruises well, no hair-pulling/teeth gnashing/screaming obscenities install issues - bolt it all on and go.

Some people like adventure - they enjoy swimming with sharks or jumping out of airplanes. Some folks like the challenge of figuring out which wire goes where or "what does this thing-a-ma-jigger do?" Not me. I don't swim with sharks, I don't try to understand EFI. Too scary! :confused::confused:
 
#42 ·
2.8 Vs 1.8



which engine makes more power?The p-1800 was a fun car and solid performer.One thing good about being able to fix points on the side of the road,you get lots of practice.
re points system failing how many more times than H.E.I.? a condenser fails as often as a module if not more,module costs more,same diagnostic technique.if you can diagnose a condenser then buy an H.E.I.
also consider a 35,000 volt spark Vs a 10,000 volt spark?etc etc,,,
 
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