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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-04-2005, 08:36 PM
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Caster and Camber

I just took my 40 Ford Coupe out for it's first day on the road . I have a couple of problems . It's does not drive to bad , but not all that great either . I tried to set the frt end up good for just running around till I could get it to a frt end shop . I have a hand held gauge from Snap-On . It would probably work fine if I knew what I was doing . Does any one know the spec's for a mustang II frt end . This is a frt end that I cut out of a 1975 Mustang not a store bought one . ( I'll never do that again ! ) lot's of work .

On a differant note : I found a bigger problem . The power steering pump has been empty a couple of times and I could not see any leaks . I just found out where the fluid was going . It's filling up the left boot on the power rack !
I guess it's has too much presure and it's blowed out the seal on the rack .
It's a Chevy type pump and a Mustang power rack , both new . When I bought the pump they gave me three brass reducers to put it the rack to lower the presure . I did that . Now what ? Can I buy a regulator valve to put in the line so it can be adjusted ?

I whated to put a photo of the 40 here but can't figure out how . There are some old pictures at my site here .
Bigiron40
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Old 12-04-2005, 09:15 PM
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Several street rod suppliers sell the proper spring and relief valve for the pump. In the old days we used to cut the spring untill the steering "felt" right.. Modifying that front sheet metal crossmember is fun isn't it. So very glad kits came along!!
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Old 12-04-2005, 11:05 PM
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I don't know what the specs were on the Mustang, but 2.5-3.5 degrees caster and 0 to -1 would be fine for camber.

I'll look to see if there are specs that old in my computer tomorrow.

Brian
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:06 PM
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I couldn't get the specs because our system doesn't go back that far. You know, it isn't rocket science though. I aligned my 65 Buick Skylark telling the computer it was a "similar" car, an 88ish S-10 pickup. It worked just fine.

I did find with a little search the following information. At Rod and Custom tech articles (click here)

By using the manufacturer-supplied alignment specs for the spindle, your new IFS should work as well as it does in a brand-new car, if not better. The kit manufacturer should supply all alignment details, and the following information should be used as a loose guideline only. Camber on an IFS-equipped car with radial tires is generally set around 0 to 1 degree positive, which puts the top of the tire slightly outboard of the bottom. This creates a tendency for the tires to turn toward the vehicle centerline, providing straight-line stability.

Toe-in keeps the car tracking straight as it moves down the road, and with radial tires somewhere between 1/16- to 1/8-inch toe-in works pretty well according to VanDervort. While the car is underway, this is usually reduced to 0-inch as any slack in the steering system comes under the pressure of driving.

"Caster is where things get interesting," VanDervort says. "By leaning the kingpin angle back somewhat, an effect is created where turning the wheels raises the car. Therefore, the car's own weight attempts to push the wheels straight again. As you can imagine, more caster provides increased straight-line stability at the expense of harder steering. Bonneville cars often run up to 15 degrees positive caster to gain the stability they need at ultra-high speeds." For a more in-depth look at caster, see illustration number seven.


The specs I gave should work out just fine for your 40.

Brian
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Old 12-06-2005, 08:17 PM
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I use more caster than the Mustang II specs call for, on the order of 5 to 6 degrees. It makes it much less sensitive driving down the road. Camber about 1 degree positive, and toe is about 1/32 to 1/16 toe in. These specs have worked on several cars for me.

The pump did not cause the rack leak, it is a defective rack. Over pressure will not hurt the rack, it will make the steering twitchy. It was just rebuilt poorly.
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Old 12-09-2005, 06:49 PM
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the more caster you put on it,,, the worse the bump steer gets....
you should be prepared for major bump steer adjustments probably by relocating the rack..
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Old 12-09-2005, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik
the more caster you put on it,,, the worse the bump steer gets....
you should be prepared for major bump steer adjustments probably by relocating the rack..
I don't quite understand this statement. Please explain.
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Old 12-09-2005, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enjenjo
I don't quite understand this statement. Please explain.
Stock MII suspensions are not designed for 5-6* caster. Rotating the spindle rearward moves the steering arm 1/2 inch or more in relationship to the rack altering the bump steer.

Bump steer is the toe-in or toe-out of the front wheels as the suspension goes from normal ride height through full bump (suspension system moves up) to full droop (suspension system moves down).

http://www.bakerprecision.com/longacr17a.htm
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Old 12-10-2005, 12:48 AM
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Most builders in this area set the crossmember up for 5 degrees caster when they weld it on to the frame. That way you are not cranking the spindle back that far.
Somewhere between 1/4 and1/2 degree pos camber on the driver's side wheel and 1/4 degree less on the passenger side with 1/8" toe in.

I'd have to go out to the tool box and dig out my Snap on gage to tell you how to correctly check caster. I think it is on the gage. 20 degrees one way. level the gage and turn the gage so the tire ispointing 20 degrees the opposite way. Don't underrate that gage. It is still what all the fancy machines are compared to. In fact most shops that have one will use it to check the accuracy of the big computerized machine.
I used one for years and still have it. The big machines are a great selling aid but the Snapon gage will do a great job.
.
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Old 12-10-2005, 05:22 AM
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Caster and Camber

Thanks for the help guy's . I knew you would come through for me .
Lot's of great information . They do make a valve to reduce the presure on the rack so I ordered one from Par Automotive . They said that was a common problem with a Siginaw pump and a Ford rack . I printed out the artical in Rod and Custom ( thanks Brian) and I'm going out to the shop and get started on the frt end work this morning . I think I have a pretty good handle on it now .
Ron
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik
Stock MII suspensions are not designed for 5-6* caster. Rotating the spindle rearward moves the steering arm 1/2 inch or more in relationship to the rack altering the bump steer.

Bump steer is the toe-in or toe-out of the front wheels as the suspension goes from normal ride height through full bump (suspension system moves up) to full droop (suspension system moves down).

http://www.bakerprecision.com/longacr17a.htm
Ok, agreed. But practically the effect is negligible in normal use. I believe there would be more effect on Ackerman than on the toe in curve, and in practice, that is negligible too.
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enjenjo
Ok, agreed. But practically the effect is negligible in normal use. I believe there would be more effect on Ackerman than on the toe in curve, and in practice, that is negligible too.

We don't know what he has:

First, there is not that much adjustment available. Most will go only 2 1/2*.
Cranking 6* caster into a stock MII will not be fun. 6* caster on a stock MII is NOT "negligible" it is significant.

That is why most everyone mounts the entire MII suspension at a 5* frame angle when they weld it on........ (see chopt48 post # 9)

His car is together and driving at an "unknown" welded in suspension angle. If he didn't weld it in at 5*... he can't reasonably do 6* caster now.

The bump steer goes nuts if you try to crank the a-arm adjustments that far. The 6* is measured to the ground..... but if the susp was welded in at 5*, the susp "thinks" it is only ONE degree (as far as the parts relationship is concerned).

Scrub radius is also a major consideration on this front end for good driveability.

Ackerman is minimal and almost irrelavent. If the car drives poorly on bumps and dips who cares how it turns a tight corner in town?

I am not saying that a person can't use altered a-arms, relocate the steering, and adjust the bump steer... but it could have been done correctly when the welder was sparking.

Last edited by xntrik; 12-11-2005 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 12-11-2005, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik
We don't know what he has:

First, there is not that much adjustment available. Most will go only 2 1/2*.
Cranking 6* caster into a stock MII will not be fun. 6* caster on a stock MII is NOT "negligible" it is significant.

That is why most everyone mounts the entire MII suspension at a 5* frame angle when they weld it on........ (see chopt48 post # 9)

His car is together and driving at an "unknown" welded in suspension angle. If he didn't weld it in at 5*... he can't reasonably do 6* caster now.

The bump steer goes nuts if you try to crank the a-arm adjustments that far. The 6* is measured to the ground..... but if the susp was welded in at 5*, the susp "thinks" it is only ONE degree (as far as the parts relationship is concerned).

Scrub radius is also a major consideration on this front end for good driveability.

Ackerman is minimal and almost irrelavent. If the car drives poorly on bumps and dips who cares how it turns a tight corner in town?

I am not saying that a person can't use altered a-arms, relocate the steering, and adjust the bump steer... but it could have been done correctly when the welder was sparking.
I am assuming it is installed correctly, which would make the 5 to 6 degrees possible. He never said he couldn't get 5 degrees caster. But even then, on several cars that had it installed incorrectly, I have modified them to get more caster, and it has worked every time, making it steer much better going down the road. Yes technically it's incorrect, but in practice it works. In another note, I have also cut out several, and redid them when they were too far off.
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Old 12-11-2005, 09:31 PM
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never assume anything on this web site

read the first paragraph of what he wrote.
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:20 PM
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OK, point taken.
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